Grimrock

dark wrote:

Jack Dandy wrote:I still think it would make more sense if DEX would be the prime factor for bows\crossbows.

This is why I love the DnD Rules. Dex has ALWAYS been a main factor for Rogues, its their main avoidance and Dmg Modifier. I don’t understand why they didn’t make a Rogue use Dex the way it’s supposed to be used.

Str has always been a Warrior trait. Dex for Rogues and Wis and Int for Mages and Priest.

Granted, this is not DnD, but still. If you’re going to make a game based on the same principles, at least try to stick to the rules governing the character classes.

One other aspect bothers me too, and that’s Dual Wielding. Why is it that no matter how I attack that I can only attack once when two weapons are equipped? The cool down should not be placed on both weapons; this should be a separated attack that I can use for both weapons in hand. Both should be able to attack separately. Sigh!!! Again, this is why I love DnD.

Edit: OK, I forgot about this one, but weilding a bow or Crossbow. Come on guys, really? I have to place the Arrows in the offhand? Really? How fricking lame and stupid is that?

Its not stupid its IMHO for balance reasons, if you compare the ranged skill and the trowing skill it seems that the ranged one is better, but you have to sacrifice both hands for it, while when you use throwing weapons you still have a hand free .

This may have already been brought up but I've been told that range weapons can't miss like melee can. This whole issue could be resolved if they could miss, that way dexterity has offensive value to an archer character by allowing them to be more accurate. Minotaur archers could still be viable, but wouldn't be unstoppable. It's frustrating that a skill that rouges usually excel at only offers defensive support, which is largely unnecessary for a back row archer. It would also add more diversity to skill selection and already existing archer characters could be made viable again.

I also disagree with the way vitality is set up. As I understand it doesn't have a flat rate of increase so that the amount of hp you gain per level starts to drop off significantly after level 14.

dark wrote:Edit: OK, I forgot about this one, but weilding a bow or Crossbow. Come on guys, really? I have to place the Arrows in the offhand? Really? How fricking lame and stupid is that?

Would you shoot with a bow one handed in real life?

Well according to the people here, they would dual-wield longbows and fire rapidly with their dextrous fingers, despite lacking any strength (because strength doesn't matter to archery, apparently).

Have I got that about right?

Dalton wrote:Well according to the people here, they would dual-wield longbows and fire rapidly with their dextrous fingers, despite lacking any strength (because strength doesn't matter to archery, apparently).

Have I got that about right?

Yeah, that's what we want...

The contribution from strength to damage is pretty minor. On character creation you can only put 6 points into strength anyways, so you'll only ever be 6 points behind if you made a "mistake" by putting points into strength instead of dex on your ranged attacker.

Dex is actually reasonably useful for dodging. Considering that your back row does get attacked from time to time, and that your best armor is going to go to your front row, and your vitality is going to probably have been neglected in the back row, having an extra chance to not get hit is reasonably useful. If I remember, 6 dex is 3 evasion, which is I believe similar to wearing a phalanx shield. Except you get to use a bow.

Dexterity's primary function, in my opinion, is evasion. Melee accuracy is an ancillary bonus, but not really it's real purpose. It's a nice bonus though because those characters evading are likely those characters attacking with melee weapons.

Strength's primary function is dealing damage. Secondary is carry weight, which is again a kind of handy thing to have. Strength will be used for non-mages, and is often trained by fighter skills. Fighters wear heavy armor, and rogues wear light armor, but mages just wear clothes, so the strength stat helps to offset armor weight, as well as just adds some flavor.

However, the most important factor of your strength is going to be your weapon skill. The guy above doing tests between his fighter with high strength and his rogue with high dex, and showing the rogue winning is an example. A response was "you must be wrong, because STR is the stat that increases your ranged damage", but what wasn't mentioned was the rogue's skills. I'd wager that the rogue has a high bow skill. I also believe that even if you took a minotaur rogue and pumped strength and pitted it against a lizard rogue who pumped dex, if they both had the same bow skill and the same weapons, your results would be likely only a few points of damage off from one another. Give the dex bow user a few more skill points and he'll win. Likewise, if you get attacked from behind and the minotaur gets whacked and killed, but the lizard evades, maybe the lizard gets a few more experience on the way back to revive.

My advice to players who pumped dex on creation is just to suck it up. Sure, you misunderstood, but that was your mistake, and now you know better. Dex is not a worthless stat, but it doesn't increase damage. You could fix it, but really, there's no need. If you're playing on hard, consider it an additional handicap and a lesson learned. If you're playing on easy, well, what does it matter then? the game's easy I'm not saying don't min-max. I most definitely do myself. I'm just saying, so you made a mistake... own it and move on.

zeidrich wrote:The contribution from strength to damage is pretty minor. On character creation you can only put 6 points into strength anyways, so you'll only ever be 6 points behind if you made a "mistake" by putting points into strength instead of dex on your ranged attacker.

Dex is actually reasonably useful for dodging. Considering that your back row does get attacked from time to time, and that your best armor is going to go to your front row, and your vitality is going to probably have been neglected in the back row, having an extra chance to not get hit is reasonably useful. If I remember, 6 dex is 3 evasion, which is I believe similar to wearing a phalanx shield. Except you get to use a bow.

Dexterity's primary function, in my opinion, is evasion. Melee accuracy is an ancillary bonus, but not really it's real purpose. It's a nice bonus though because those characters evading are likely those characters attacking with melee weapons.

Strength's primary function is dealing damage. Secondary is carry weight, which is again a kind of handy thing to have. Strength will be used for non-mages, and is often trained by fighter skills. Fighters wear heavy armor, and rogues wear light armor, but mages just wear clothes, so the strength stat helps to offset armor weight, as well as just adds some flavor.

However, the most important factor of your strength is going to be your weapon skill. The guy above doing tests between his fighter with high strength and his rogue with high dex, and showing the rogue winning is an example. A response was "you must be wrong, because STR is the stat that increases your ranged damage", but what wasn't mentioned was the rogue's skills. I'd wager that the rogue has a high bow skill. I also believe that even if you took a minotaur rogue and pumped strength and pitted it against a lizard rogue who pumped dex, if they both had the same bow skill and the same weapons, your results would be likely only a few points of damage off from one another. Give the dex bow user a few more skill points and he'll win. Likewise, if you get attacked from behind and the minotaur gets whacked and killed, but the lizard evades, maybe the lizard gets a few more experience on the way back to revive.

My advice to players who pumped dex on creation is just to suck it up. Sure, you misunderstood, but that was your mistake, and now you know better. Dex is not a worthless stat, but it doesn't increase damage. You could fix it, but really, there's no need. If you're playing on hard, consider it an additional handicap and a lesson learned. If you're playing on easy, well, what does it matter then? the game's easy I'm not saying don't min-max. I most definitely do myself. I'm just saying, so you made a mistake... own it and move on.

It's not really about being upset at a mistake. Thats part of it sure. But mainly I think people just think the idea of an archer not needing dexterity is kind of stupid.

dex·ter·i·ty/dekˈsteritē/
Noun:
Skill in performing tasks, esp. with the hands.
Synonyms:
skill - adroitness - deftness - knack - cleverness

It's the "rogue skill" for a reason. Don't get me wrong, I sort of like that strength affects archery. I would hate for this game to be streamlined like some sort of bioware trash, but dexterity should certainly have an effect with the offensive power of archery. Maybe it can decrease reload time? I already suggested adding the chance for projectiles to miss their targets, and being that ammo is so scarce accuracy would certainly be important. Perhaps strength could affect reload time and dexterity could effect damage? that would seem logical and both skills would be important and keep the game from being stream lined.

I'm anxious to hear if the devs are willing to look into skill balance. It's something that gets over looked in single player games too often.

It would seem to me that dex is a far far more effective stat than str, however it doesn't have a great deal of applications for a rogue. For front line fighters though it affects both dodging and to-hit chance, while str affects damage and encumbrance. I'm finding the accuracy equates to more damage than strength.

So it looks as if we just need to get past our urge to throw everything into str for fighters and dex for rogues.

Renevent wrote:

Saxi wrote: True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

Why is a dagger rogue completely useless? I've only used a bow rogue so far (and even with un-optimal stats he definitely isn't useless).

I'll take your word for it because I haven't tried it yet, but just theory-crafting I can see dex at least being somewhat useful for a dagger rogue.

I've made one with mainly dex (24 Dex 15 Strength), they seem to be doing pretty well, dishing out huge amounts of damage (Up to about 60-70 a single hit, more than that if a multiple hit skill lands) fast and negating most melee attacks through very high evasion (54 Evasion so far).

I think this thread has too much speculation/comparisons and not enough testing.

Looking at some of these threads, I get the overall and general vibe that people are treating this game as an indirect sequel of 'insert childhood dungeon crawler' and just looks like to me too much like people complaining about how you can't rocket-jump in the new FPS game they bought, because they could in Team Fortress 2 or Quake 3.

Halk wrote: I'm finding the accuracy equates to more damage than strength.

Skill gives a lot more accuracy than dexterity does. You'll hardly notice a difference with a really high-skill fighter.

I find strength to be important for front line fighters as it lets them carry that heavy armor, as well as being the party's pack mules, as well as the additional damage on successful hits.

But these arguments can go on forever, and that's what makes it good the way it is. There's no one BEST stat, there's player preference, and picking and choosing what advantages give you the most benefit.

Isn't that much more fun than "Hurr, pump str for fighters, pump dex for rogues, pump will for mages, ez win"?