Grimrock

Concerning the ideas of making attacking more complicated, holding down buttons to time attacks, sweet zones and whatnot... stuff like that could work if you only had one character. You can't possibly do that with a 4 character party without completely ignoring three of them. You have to be able to control 4 characters in real time without fiddling around with the mouse, 3 characters standing idle.

The only thing that attacking needs is the choice when to use special attacks. And a good selection of special attacks including tactical ones that debuff the enemy rather than damage them. Shield Bash, anyone?

1varangian wrote: This is not an action game and shouldn't try to be one... right now it's an odd blend of stat based RPG combat and twitch based dodging that negates the need for said stats completely. Combat should be either or.. if it's trying to be both it won't be the best it can. It ends up a flawed RPG system and simplistic action.

Would you say Doom is not a proper shooter because it's an odd blend of FPS mechanics and twitch-based dodging that negates the need for regenerating health?

The game is what it is. I personally wouldn't like it very much if combat would only entail standing in front of a mob and exchanging psudorandom numbers until someone dies. I suppose that most people who played and enjoyed the game wouldn't want a change of the core combat mechanics either (can't know for sure, of course). I think the greatest strength of LoG at the moment is being not quite like anything else on the market, through its various mechanics including combat, and that should be kept the way it is.

Chiller wrote:

1varangian wrote: This is not an action game and shouldn't try to be one... right now it's an odd blend of stat based RPG combat and twitch based dodging that negates the need for said stats completely. Combat should be either or.. if it's trying to be both it won't be the best it can. It ends up a flawed RPG system and simplistic action.

Would you say Doom is not a proper shooter because it's an odd blend of FPS mechanics and twitch-based dodging that negates the need for regenerating health?

The game is what it is. I personally wouldn't like it very much if combat would only entail standing in front of a mob and exchanging psudorandom numbers until someone dies. I suppose that most people who played and enjoyed the game wouldn't want a change of the core combat mechanics either (can't know for sure, of course). I think the greatest strength of LoG at the moment is being not quite like anything else on the market, through its various mechanics including combat, and that should be kept the way it is.

Doom is a pure blooded FPS that doesn't have contradicting elements in the game.. or a 4 person party for that matter. Your comparison makes no sense.

No one is asking for combat where you stand in the same square trading blows until someone dies. Where do you get that idea?

What is being asked, is removing an exploit that you can use to kill the toughest enemies in the game without ever getting attacked.

Removing an exploit, not reworking game mechanics.

Your conclusions are what doesn't make sense. The game is what it is. This is not an exploit, but a necessity. The monsters are designed to be generally powerful and if you engage them by mindlessly trading blows you will die and they will dance on your carcass before devouring it. This is deliberate.
This system requires you to be crafty and careful about how to engage enemies and encourages you to find solutions such as freezing them in place, use doors to your advantage, and play your cards wisely, one of them is being more agile than most enemies. The entire game design, including level design, is based around this. This is never going to be changed.

This is what the game is. You don't like it. That is fine. You demand core mechanics to be changed. That is not fine. You are wasting your time and ours in a futile effort.
Solution: Play a different game.

While you have a point Legion, I still think combat could be tweaked to be on par with the rest of the game's excellent features.

Whether it's done by focusing on the RPG\stat related aspects or player-skill ones, I hope the devs can find a good solution.

1varangian wrote:Doom is a pure blooded FPS that doesn't have contradicting elements in the game.. or a 4 person party for that matter. Your comparison makes no sense.

It was intended as an ironic way to show what Doom would look like from the perspective of someone used to a modern "tactical" shooter like COD. The idea was that you see Grimrock from the perspective of someone used to a different type of RPG. The joke was that I went backwards in time instead of forward

1varangian wrote:No one is asking for combat where you stand in the same square trading blows until someone dies. Where do you get that idea?

Dunno. If you remove dodging, isn't that what you are left with?

1varangian wrote:What is being asked, is removing an exploit that you can use to kill the toughest enemies in the game without ever getting attacked.

"Exploit" is in the eye of the beholder. From my perspective, the combat in this game is clearly intended to be played in such a way as to avoid taking hits from mobs more than 90% of the time (regardless if they connect or not). The party can't take the kind of damage that the toughest enemies in the game can dish out, other than occasional and/or accidental hits. Consider the fact that the final boss kills you instantly.

At first I thought the strafing thing was kind of cheesy, but then as I got used to it, the combat started to be really fun for me. And yeah, it's easy to avoid attacks from 1 slow monster, but when you get 2 or 3 quick mobs aggroed on you, it's not that easy to dodge them all.

BlueLegion wrote:Your conclusions are what doesn't make sense. The game is what it is. This is not an exploit, but a necessity. The monsters are designed to be generally powerful and if you engage them by mindlessly trading blows you will die and they will dance on your carcass before devouring it. This is deliberate.

If making all 1v1 fights boring and unexciting is deliberate, then it's just a mistake that can be corrected. The devs have not commented on the issue so I wouldn't make statements for them.

This system requires you to be crafty and careful about how to engage enemies and encourages you to find solutions such as freezing them in place, use doors to your advantage, and play your cards wisely, one of them is being more agile than most enemies. The entire game design, including level design, is based around this. This is never going to be changed.

This is what the game is. You don't like it. That is fine. You demand core mechanics to be changed. That is not fine. You are wasting your time and ours in a futile effort.
Solution: Play a different game.

And all of the above will be made even more rewarding by a system that can punish you for a bad move. Some enemy that is so fast you can't always outstrafe it would make the combat system more dynamic and interesting.

No one is demanding core mechanics to be changed. Please read the posts through so you know what you are arguing against. We all want to keep the "combat tetris" in. We all want movement and positioning to matter. What we don't want is cheese tactics that make all single enemies utterly pointless unless you are trapped in a dead end hallway.

It is entirely possible to make 1v1 fights challenging as well as the scenario where you get swarmed by enemies. Right now the 1v1 situations are broken and there's very little anyone can say to argue that.

1vs1 fights in most games are usually boring and easy.....I don't understand your gripe with that.

MASKOAA wrote:1vs1 fights in most games are usually boring and easy.....I don't understand your gripe with that.

huh? This topic is getting ridiculous. I will just wait for the reply from the devs if there will ever be a one.