Grimrock

Isaac wrote:

Anurias wrote:The crystals and potions don't make the game possible, they make the game more forgiving.

If you don't have either... then petrification becomes a serious problem. If a party member gets crippled ~then petrified, the entire party can potentially become permanently immobile. Even without that, the party could permanently lose members over the course of the game... potentially meaning that the player could face boss fights with as little as one "surviving" character.

You seem to have missed where I said

The game 'can' be played without crystals and without potions

plainly put, it is possible to play through the game without letting any of your characters die or become petrified. Having things to counter those are just the devs giving you something that allows you 'to be forgiven' for having that happen to a character. It is by no means a requirement for them to put that into the game. It makes the game more forgiving. You can get a character killed or petrified and fix that problem with a crystal, but just because you can fix it doesn't mean you have to need to be in a situation where there's anything to fix in the first place.

If the devs scripted something into the game where you were presented with a puzzle where you were required to kill one or more of your characters to solve a puzzle and progress then yes, you would have to have some way to bring them back like a crystal or potion. However, you are not presented with any situations in the game that require you to be in a situation where using a crystal or potion are necessary to continue through the game.

Anurias wrote:

Isaac wrote:

Anurias wrote:The crystals and potions don't make the game possible, they make the game more forgiving.

If you don't have either... then petrification becomes a serious problem. If a party member gets crippled ~then petrified, the entire party can potentially become permanently immobile. Even without that, the party could permanently lose members over the course of the game... potentially meaning that the player could face boss fights with as little as one "surviving" character.

You seem to have missed where I said

The game 'can' be played without crystals and without potions

plainly put, it is possible to play through the game without letting any of your characters die or become petrified.

I didn't miss it.

Plainly put, it's possible to live one's life without even getting a paper-cut... but the odds are against it. And [In Grimrock] it is not purely a matter of player control; accidents happen; combat injuries happen. Anyone in the party can get injured and made immobile; (permanent or temporary)... That can at times cause the death of the party. While it is technically possible to play without healing/restoratives... I do not think it is practical.

*What is "fun" is certainly subjective, but how many people do you (or anyone) know that would play a user mod indefinitely until they complete it?

FYI, there are people who have played through the game trying to challenge themselves by doing things like not drinking potions and the like, so the odds being against it doesn't negate the fact that it can be done. The point wasn't about what was practical it was about how forgiving or how punishing someone wants to make a mod or game. The number and placement of healing crystals in the game sets the stage for how much the devs decided to allow players slip up and get a character critically wounded. So if the OP wants to make their mod more punishing than the original game they can use the placement of the crystals from the game to determine if they need fewer crystals of their own or if they need to spread them out more, and vice versa, if they want to be more forgiving then they can put in more or place them closer together.

To note, I'm using the words punishing and forgiving because I don't believe that crystals or potions set the difficulty of the game. That is entirely up to the challenges presented in the game.

Isaac wrote:*What is "fun" is certainly subjective, but how many people do you (or anyone) know that would play a user mod indefinitely until they complete it?

I'm sure you meant for this to be rhetorical but, I wouldn't even begin to theorize as to how many people would play a mod of any sort because honestly, it depends on several factors, the least of which is how many crystals are in it. If the mod is engaging then more people will play it. If it's hard then people who like hard will play it. If it's easy then people who like easy will play it. If it's punishing then people who like that will play it. etc. For anything that is made there are people out there that will enjoy it and I for one am not going to judge their tastes because if they're having fun with it then good for them. I know that I've played plenty of games where if you make a single mistake you see a game over screen. Some were fun, some weren't. I've also played games where no matter what you did, you just plain couldn't lose. Again, some were fun, some weren't. So while I don't know how many people would play a particular mod, I know someone will.

Anurias wrote:FYI, there are people who have played through the game trying to challenge themselves by doing things like not drinking potions and the like, so the odds being against it doesn't negate the fact that it can be done.

Indeed there are...

My first game with LoG2, saw the party fall down a pit, cripple the mage's ankle ~and thus paralyze the party amidst a Medusa and snakes; (the first Medusa I had encountered in the game). My mage was almost immediately petrified, and with that ~inaccessible, and overburdened. This meant that though my party survived the fight, it was no longer possible to move. As this was an Ironman/single use crystal game ~with well over an hour since the last save... I tried to wait it out, at first... then had to look online for what to do about petrification, and apprehensively hoping that crystals were not the only cure. (Because there weren't any unused ones that I knew of; and besides...I couldn't move from the spot.)

Potions were the only way to recover, and I was simply lucky that I actually had the means to make the cure [skill and components]. Had it been the alchemist instead of the mage, the game would have been irrecoverable, even with three healthy PCs.
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When I said practical, one of the things I meant was "Does one really want to release a mod that only a marginal percent of the few that actually play it, will bother to complete?" (If the answer is "yes", then that's fine.)

thanks for all opinions so far. So far you have confirmed to me that the lack of the crystals should not be a problem for majority of people, if dungeon is designed well / some other mechanism used to not punish player too hard. I am going to try

If somebody is interested, here are some details I am planning to use inside my mod. I have noticed discussion about possible game stuck / petrification problems. As for the petrification I think you have to realize there is just few monster causing this state (only medusa ?) so it is not big issue to avoid in the custom mod. As for wounded limbs I have solved this another way so thats ok.

Anurias wrote:*What is "fun" is certainly subjective, but how many people do you (or anyone) know that would play a user mod indefinitely until they complete it?I'm sure you meant for this to be rhetorical but, I wouldn't even begin to theorize as to how many people would play a mod of any sort because honestly, it depends on several factors, the least of which is how many crystals are in it. If the mod is engaging then more people will play it. If it's hard then people who like hard will play it. If it's easy then people who like easy will play it. If it's punishing then people who like that will play it. etc. For anything that is made there are people out there that will enjoy it and I for one am not going to judge their tastes because if they're having fun with it then good for them. I know that I've played plenty of games where if you make a single mistake you see a game over screen. Some were fun, some weren't. I've also played games where no matter what you did, you just plain couldn't lose. Again, some were fun, some weren't. So while I don't know how many people would play a particular mod, I know someone will.

this is really nicely said !

Drakkan, I like your description of the way you want to lay out your dungeon and I think that having a single crystal in a place that you're expecting the player to frequent is a pretty good idea. It will mean that players will be less likely to try your dungeon on single-use crystal mode though unless you were to place multiple crystals in that location, but some people might also find that to be a way to increase their challenge if you only put one crystal.

One thing I am curious about though, were you planning on having the different areas feed back to your central hub in some way after the player completed an area? Either through an exit that actually lets out near there, or via a teleporter?

Anurias wrote:Drakkan, I like your description of the way you want to lay out your dungeon and I think that having a single crystal in a place that you're expecting the player to frequent is a pretty good idea. It will mean that players will be less likely to try your dungeon on single-use crystal mode though unless you were to place multiple crystals in that location, but some people might also find that to be a way to increase their challenge if you only put one crystal.

One thing I am curious about though, were you planning on having the different areas feed back to your central hub in some way after the player completed an area? Either through an exit that actually lets out near there, or via a teleporter?

Hi Anurias. thanks. I think I am on good way. as for a way back - it is quite simple and elegant solution, already resolved - teleportation scroll.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8063&p=89957&hilit ... oll#p89957

of course I am also planning some normal teleports and stables to transport you between cities (if you pay it of course).

I'd say Crystals are needed.

No crystals would just mean that if a character dies or is injured while you don't have health potions left, you'll have to reload. With the game's fairly long initial loading times, that is pretty annoying. I rather backtrack to the last crystal, that's more fun. I might even consider if I won't take a different path for now instead of just walking back where I died or was hurt.

Positioning of crystals is quite important. There don't need to be too many so there is still a penalty for letting your character die, but they should be placed in a central position that has many paths to explore near it, so you don't end up backtracking always the same long, linear path.

My personal preference would be to to design the maps without crystals and discover during play testing where the hardest to impossible areas are, and place a crystal nearby; and do it sparingly.

*Another preference would be to add a damage check that gibs the PC if they take excessive damage on the killing hit; and disintegration spells for certain high level monsters; like petrification, but irreversible. [Ideally also including a means to acquire new NPCs in the mod.]

Central hub with crystal is always a neat idea. Another way of approaching crystals is also as rewards. Secrets are one option, but you can't guarantee the player will find it. You can however give him the choice in "treasure room" type of situations. You find a key, and one door holds a crystal, the other a super-sword. Depending on its play style, a player could chose better equipment or another helaing spot or another savegame point. The more the player has choices, the more engaged he'll become.

We took both of these approaches in the ORRR2, to good result.