Grimrock

Azel wrote:I have faced the problem of starvation zero times in this game.

Like i said: this thread is pointless.

Azel wrote:Lets say I have 3 food items in my inventory (per character) and I am facing the Tetris puzzle in the sewers. Without using a spoiler I will be doing a whole lot of moving around before I solve it. That's going to cost me a piece of food, possibly 2 if I'm extra dumb that day.

If you prefer to walk/climb/dive aim- and clueless a.k.a. try to brute force a puzzle .. feel free to do so

For every puzzle in the game there are hints and the Tetris puzzle is no exception. You can actually uncover it's hint note before even reaching the puzzle. When you enter this room without the hint note you just wonder what this silly room is about and leave. When you get there with the hint note or find it later you immediatly know what you have to do in this room.

Azel wrote:Once I solve the puzzle I still have a massive dungeon to finish with more puzzles and enemies. I prefer to save my 2-3 food items for the dungeon crawl and action RPG aspect. I don't want to waste them trying to solve a puzzle. If it takes me a few days to solve a puzzle I don't want that to involve food runs. Yes I have an inventory but there are a few hundred other items other than food that are way more important and useful.

Your preference seems to load and redo a puzzle in seconds while figuring it out might have taken minutes hours or days. Nothing wrong with that when you wasted a lot of stuff but regarding food it's hardly needed. I recall that figuring out a few puzzles during beta did indeed halt my progress for several hours but even then it never EVER! required me to do food runs. Using brain over feet saves a lot of food

Azel wrote:Bottom Line: Food and Puzzles dont mix.

A theorycraft; a pretty bad one too.

Azel wrote:Bottom Line: Dr. Disaster cant read.

Actually i read behind your lines

Azel, your issue is the same issue I've seen in some 'Let's Play' videos on Youtube... you are overthinking the puzzles and making them a lot harder than they have to be. The tetris puzzle...
On the subject of the UHU, AR, TE, LAM.
So there isn't a need for excessive moving and trial and error if you just stop and think about the puzzle and don't try to include mechanics that aren't even hinted at. Also, yes, EVERYTHING has a clue... I have found every clue and every secret in the game, (including the secret that isn't in the game's stats and rewards a hidden achievement, which there is a blatant clue for, if you can put 2 and 2 together to realize it's the clue) if you haven't found the clue for something you haven't looked in the right place or are simply overthinking the problem.

I don't have any issue with the game having food and starvation, it's simply part of the game and has been a common aspect of the dungeon crawling genre since it began. I don't expect the developers to remove it, and I sincerely hope they don't as I feel it is an integral part of the game.

Dematto wrote:I'm having trouble understanding...
why would food not be classified as one of those distraction/motivation factors? It's a subsystem that adds a layer of immersion and the illusion of urgency to the party's mission.
The latent conflict between the two systems--the conflict that you outline--helps drive the urgency by threatening to take away resting as a means to recovering health and energy.

It's part of their larger system of engagement, in line with what you mentioned. Rather than tap into awe and wonder, Grimrock tries to gently tweak the player's sense of fear and failure. That's why combat is real-time, right? So that you, as a player, are the real limitation and chances are you/I aren't always fast enough. We fumble spells. We miss attacks. We can't remember if there's a pit behind us. There was a secret button, but we don't know what it opened. And now I can't find my dart. And I don't know if Earth 3 Fire 2 does anything, but I sure hope it does. And oh god, that wasn't there before. The monsters are faster, they play by different rules. And now you're out of food and that means you have to use herbs to heal, and those take FOREVER to duplicate, and now you have a leg wound on two characters and one is overencumbered and you can't move, and you hear a scratching behind you. It's unfair. The deck is stacked.

Insert Batman Begins quote about falling.

First of all, thanks for giving an intellectual response gosh. I had to stop reading Dr. Disaster's posts to save IQ points. But I digress...

Food is definitely a distraction, but in my opinion it is the wrong type of distraction since it is distracting the player from the desire to solve the puzzle, as opposed to distracting the player from the frustration of trying to solve it. True adventure games distract from the frustration, not from the puzzle itself (and certainly don't add to it); which is why I could take a day to solve a single puzzle in Myst and love every minute of it. If the character in Myst needed to take a break to find food every hour then I certainly would not have committed to completing the epic 5-game masterpiece.

But I guess you are saying that having to go find food should distract from the frustration somehow (as opposed to adding to it). I am not sure how that would work; for example, when facing the UHU NA puzzle room after 20 minutes of getting it wrong I am not quite frustrated. Instead, I am intrigued. I am suddenly grabbing pen, paper, and a new batch of coffee... ready to write down test cases; now I'm in puzzle solving adventure heaven! But wtf, my characters are getting hungry so I either need to hurry up and solve the puzzle, leave the area to find food which kills the puzzle solving enjoyment, re-load my saved game to start over fresh, or waste a piece of food which only adds to the rushed feeling. I wasn't frustrated before, but the darn food is rushing me, so now I'm frustrated.

I very much disagree with the assertion that there is any sense of urgency that should be expected since very early on the "Island Master" leaves you a map of the entire region with a message that encourages you to pick any path and explore. You can try to head towards the Pyramid, the Ruins, or the Cemetary. The order does not matter, which completely contradicts any sense of urgency. So if there is no rush to complete any area in any certain order, then why is there is a rush to solve secrets, riddles, and puzzles?

Grimrock 2 is more about open world exploration that requires caution and patience; unlike the original Grimrock which is definitely a plot that requires urgent escape from a prison. Grimrock 2 is more like the original Myst: the player is trapped on an Island trying to unlock secrets... at your own pace.

With all that said, I do agree with everything you outlined: not fast enough, forgot about a trap, lost a dart, fumbled spells, broken limbs. Those are all great additions to the game that certainly "stack the deck against you." And we know that is how it should be because the notes from the Island Master make it very clear that you will fail and die no matter what choice you make. However, none of that leads to a sense of urgency; instead I feel it leads to a sense of caution and slow-paced advancement. The fact that your limbs can break means you have to "stop" and think before you jump down a shaft; or go find a rope so you can do so safely. Everything you mentioned supports caution and strategic planning; basically the opposite of urgency.

I was able to pharm exp in the Herder's Den for 3 days... definitely no sense of urgency there. Even combat is best accomplished by taking your time instead of rushing. To avoid broken limbs from battles, use Invisibility or the Forcefield to set up attacks. No, the only time I ever feel a sense of urgency is when I'm far from replenishing food sources and trying to solve a puzzle. I think the factors you outlined would all provide for a better experience if food was eliminated. For example, players would be more inclined to try to discover new Rune Spell combinations if they didn't have to worry about feeding the damn wizard

Anurias wrote:the note gives you the shapes and if you follow standard reading order for english, which is what the game is presented in

The game presents a different language, UHU NA TE. What you are describing only makes sense "after" completing the puzzle, not before.

Anurias wrote:Thinking you have to do something like swim around them or place something on them is not even hinted at

Neither is having to climb the ladders. There are more puzzles in the game that involve walking a pattern and placing items in locations than there are climbing ladders; literally like a 10-1 ratio, if not more. You are speaking from hindsight and making excuses.

Anarius wrote:Also, yes, EVERYTHING has a clue.

Hmmm, yet you just tried to explain something that doesn't have a clue:
"The turning directions are not hard to figure out and don't take a lot of trial and error"

Trial and error is not the same as having a clue; it is literally the exact opposite. You're contradicting yourself, making excuses, and explaining how to solve puzzles after they have been figured out. Pretty boring and worthless replies. You seem more interested in making people believe you are amazing at figuring out clues; that's cute

Azel wrote:But I guess you are saying that having to go find food should distract from the frustration somehow (as opposed to adding to it). I am not sure how that would work; for example, when facing the UHU NA puzzle room after 20 minutes of getting it wrong I am not quite frustrated. Instead, I am intrigued. I am suddenly grabbing pen, paper, and a new batch of coffee... ready to write down test cases; now I'm in puzzle solving adventure heaven! But wtf, my characters are getting hungry so I either need to hurry up and solve the puzzle, leave the area to find food which kills the puzzle solving enjoyment, re-load my saved game to start over fresh, or waste a piece of food which only adds to the rushed feeling. I wasn't frustrated before, but the darn food is rushing me, so now I'm frustrated.

Pretty clear case of hyperactivity disorder, perhaps even ADHD. With hands and feet trying to do your brains work it's no wonder your always distracted (attention deficit) with the need to grab more food.

Use your brain, it saves your party a ton of food. Just try it. A 100% healthy and feed party standing still for whatever length of time will use no food at all; their food bars won't move a single pixel.

I'm probably going to regret chiming in on this thread, but:

I believe that rationing the farmers food was the initial problem, and it has less to do with wasted puzzle movement. If it were 4 "standard mechanic" characters, he would have 2-3 chests of food. The farmer causes some tough choices, and the ramifications of the decisions aren't readily apparent until later. The Same could be said of a class that consumes healing potions to gain exp, if you feed all of your potions to him, you may have regrets when everyone has broken legs on the bottom of the pyramid. I keep a packrat Minotaur full of food for everyone, and specifically "farm" food for the farmer.The problem isn't LoG's puzzle logic, or Azel's ability to decipher them. The Farmer is a greedy glutton, and will eat you out of existence if you let him

Dr.Disaster wrote:Pretty clear case of hyperactivity disorder, perhaps even ADHD. With hands and feet trying to do your brains work it's no wonder your always distracted (attention deficit) with the need to grab more food.

Wow. Is it really necessary to insult about 4% of the world's population, plus the entire field of psychology, just so you can make an ad hominem attack against someone who disagrees with you about a video game?

Dr. Disaster, you respond to things that are neither stated nor implied, which indicates a clear case of Head-up-Ass disorder.

msyblade, the issue isnt that the puzzles cant be solved, the issue is that I would rather find the solution quickly via spoiler since the puzzle aspect of Grimrock 2 is implemented poorly. Solving them naturally is more of a nuisance than a rewarding experience.

minmay wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:Pretty clear case of hyperactivity disorder, perhaps even ADHD. With hands and feet trying to do your brains work it's no wonder your always distracted (attention deficit) with the need to grab more food.

Wow. Is it really necessary to insult about 4% of the world's population, plus the entire field of psychology, just so you can make an ad hominem attack against someone who disagrees with you about a video game?

I doubt that many people care about my take on one specific persons imagined forced hunt for virtual food.

msyblade wrote:The Farmer is a greedy glutton, and will eat you out of existence if you let him

Aye LoG2(*) Farmers are ravenous

(*) just to make sure that real world farmers are not concern about us, minmay

Dr.Disaster wrote: one specific persons imagined forced hunt for virtual food

No one is talking about a forced food hunt, well, other than you when you said,

" there is plenty of food to grab in the game"
"This is only true when the game (and mod) designers forget to add replenishing food sources"

So as typical with every single one of your responses in this thread, your brain rearranges what is actually said and allows you to post a sad Fanboi response. And this time you argued against yourself. Bravo! You have 1,828 posts on this forum, that's 200 more than petri, a dev and game co-founder I guess all anyone has to do to enjoy the game thoroughly is become a big 'ol loser like you and let the virtual world - and its virtual food - consume their life. Well done, child.