Grimrock

Gath Of Baal wrote: 1) Out of food when you can't complete the game without it is annoying. I don't want to spend my time farming things. It is much more fun playing the game.

I actually like the hunger system. That little extra stress factor adds to the immersion of being stranded/lost on a mysterious island, at least for me, so I appreciate it. I also have experience from the original Legend of Grimrock (as you do too, according to your OP), where gameplay mechanics such as what we're talking about now were already present, so I suppose being familiar with the playstyle counts as well. What I mean is, I believe newcomers to the franchise may struggle somewhat more than the old-timers.

Anyways, back to the issue at hand, the process of acquiring food is not that lengthy, especially if you can incorporate it into your exploring time; Try to catch fish whenever you have to swim by an area anyhow, for instance. If needed, a quick trip to Twigroot forest can earn you several warg steaks in a few minutes.

A couple final hints: Always save food supplies (don't throw anything away) and don't overfeed your characters so that nothing is wasted.

If this is still not your cup of tea, I imagine the game may be modded to cancel this hunger system. It's a matter of looking into it.

Gath Of Baal wrote: 2) Hard puzzles are fine. Illogical puzzles that require either looking it up through the internet or randomly trying combinations till it works are bad. Also, I explained why the non-linear game structure is bad in this case.

Puzzles in LoG 2 can be quite complicated, yes, but I have not yet found anything illogical. Admittedly, I've had to use the internet one or two times to seek help, but once I understood the solution, it always made sense and I'd ask myself, "Of course, how could I have missed that?" It's a great feeling to solve puzzles yourself, however, and you must always remember that the developers, at least from what I've seen so far, NEVER expect you to guess the solution. You have to be thorough and explore every possible corner. Clues should usually be nearby (In some cases they're not, but more on that below) and all you need do is decipher them while taking how the game works into consideration.

Now, it starts getting tricky when clues are spread throughout the world, and that may be disheartening at first, but you have to push on, keep doing what's available, and things should fall into place by themselves if you have a keen eye. It's extremely important to save every unique item, as some are needed for specific events and progress further. Gladly, the Hub is a great area to use as a storage place, if needded.


I hope you're able to overcome these obstacles because Legend of Grimrock 2 is a fantastic game. I haven't experienced a game of this quality in a while.

Gath Of Baal wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:1) When out of food go hunting or fishing. There is plenty of respawning stuff on the island.
2) Hard puzzles or non-linear game structure are not bad game design.

1) Out of food when you can't complete the game without it is annoying. I don't want to spend my time farming things. It is much more fun playing the game.

2) Hard puzzles are fine. Illogical puzzles that require either looking it up through the internet or randomly trying combinations till it works are bad. Also, I explained why the non-linear game structure is bad in this case.

1) Getting food is part of the game and has nothing to do with farming.
2) I did not encounter an illogical puzzle in LoG2 and for each puzzle there are hints in the game.

Dr.Disaster wrote:2) I did not encounter an illogical puzzle in LoG2 and for each puzzle there are hints in the game.

I hate to disagree, but there are 3 puzzles in the game that are illogical I have found and I doubt many figured out easily.

First: Second: And Third:

Kind of disagree with the first one, but maybe I got the right idea first just by luck, never even heard of the third one, but I definitely disagree with the second one

Jirodyne wrote:First:

SpoilerShow

The location of the 5th shrine. They hint that the location is hidden, then flat out tell you that to get to it you have to use Balance. But never do they tell you WHERE. I mean yes, it makes sense when you look at it on paper, but if I never looked it up, I never would have found it's location because It said it was Hidden, the location that it's At isn't very 'hidden' I thought it would be in a secret in the Desert, or on the beach you started at. Not right at the castle of the end game boss! That just made too much sense and not very hidden since all we have to do is look at the Rune System to notice, Hey the thing in the middle of the four elements is 'Balance'. Which I would like to call bullshit on later in another talk/rant

Have to disagree on this one because there is a stone philosopher that almost outright tells you where you have to go.

Jirodyne wrote:Second:

SpoilerShow

Down in the sewers, the northen part where you have to climb the ladders in a certain order. The only thing you get as a 'hint' is a bunch of Tetris Blocks and that's it. The only way you'd know that note was a hint for that puzzle, is if you threw out all the notes for the other puzzles after completing them, and have done EVERY other puzzle in the game and still not open that secret. THEN, by prossess of elemination, it must be a hint to a puzzle. But still doesn't say much! After figuring out the puzzle, it makes sense what it is saying, but not before then!

Again I have to disagree.

Jirodyne wrote:And Third:

SpoilerShow

The last and most hardest and obscoure puzzle in the whole game is the Runic Achievement Puzzle. You have to get the 5th element, beat the true final boss, see the true ending, and then during a 1-2 frame second of the ending, have to Screenshot a picture, look at it and notice the gibberish words on it look close to another puzzle, and figure out what it says, where to start, and where to go. I am Shocked This one was ever even completed, and the first time wasn't even done correctly! The guy posted the answer after cracking open the game and getting it! and as far as I know, NO ONE has ever figured it out without looking the answer up online.

Massive disagree on this one because it is irrelevant to finished the game.

Gath Of Baal wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:1) When out of food go hunting or fishing. There is plenty of respawning stuff on the island.
2) Hard puzzles or non-linear game structure are not bad game design.

1) Out of food when you can't complete the game without it is annoying. I don't want to spend my time farming things. It is much more fun playing the game.

2) Hard puzzles are fine. Illogical puzzles that require either looking it up through the internet or randomly trying combinations till it works are bad. Also, I explained why the non-linear game structure is bad in this case.

There aren't any illogical puzzles. Some harder than normal puzzles, yes, but I can assure you, none of them were illogical. I love puzzles and am very good at them, and the only ones that got me stuck initially are the Plague one, because I didn't realize antidote wasn't a poison cure at that time (I hadn't seen antivenom), so didn't realize potions could cure disease (which I found out later), and entering the crystal mines, because I totally forgot the clue. I'd somehow missed most of that zone and found the shrine really early, and it was many hours later until I got back to that area. Oh, and entering the pyramid, because I thought "Waking the snakes" meant I had to do something to the snakes outside it, rather than the more simple solution.

Everything else was pretty straightforward. I've played games with illogical puzzles. This is not one of them. I thought the developers did a really good job making the game fair and challenging for most people without making it a complete cakewalk for the more experienced players.


The food thing could be annoying. Despite what others have said, it didn't seem like things infinitely respawned in my game. After I fished out the lakes and rivers, I didn't see more fish. And turtles and other stuff stopped repawning too, it seemed. I didn't come close to running out of food, but I had three characters with endurance, and an item that made food not necessary. So I can see where that would be an issue for some people. And it's the sort of thing that you can't do much about once it hits you, because you've got so much time into the game at that point it's not like you're going to want to start over.

I don't think the starvation mechanic adds real difficulty for the right target audience, and it also doesn't make the game more fun (for me), so I'd rather it had been left out. Or better yet, gave small bonuses for being full rather than a penalty for running out.

Jirodyne wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:2) I did not encounter an illogical puzzle in LoG2 and for each puzzle there are hints in the game.

I hate to disagree, but there are 3 puzzles in the game that are illogical I have found and I doubt many figured out easily.

First:

SpoilerShow

The location of the 5th shrine. They hint that the location is hidden, then flat out tell you that to get to it you have to use Balance. But never do they tell you WHERE. I mean yes, it makes sense when you look at it on paper, but if I never looked it up, I never would have found it's location because It said it was Hidden, the location that it's At isn't very 'hidden' I thought it would be in a secret in the Desert, or on the beach you started at. Not right at the castle of the end game boss! That just made too much sense and not very hidden since all we have to do is look at the Rune System to notice, Hey the thing in the middle of the four elements is 'Balance'. Which I would like to call bullshit on later in another talk/rant

Second:

SpoilerShow

Down in the sewers, the northen part where you have to climb the ladders in a certain order. The only thing you get as a 'hint' is a bunch of Tetris Blocks and that's it. The only way you'd know that note was a hint for that puzzle, is if you threw out all the notes for the other puzzles after completing them, and have done EVERY other puzzle in the game and still not open that secret. THEN, by prossess of elemination, it must be a hint to a puzzle. But still doesn't say much! After figuring out the puzzle, it makes sense what it is saying, but not before then!

And Third:

SpoilerShow

The last and most hardest and obscoure puzzle in the whole game is the Runic Achievement Puzzle. You have to get the 5th element, beat the true final boss, see the true ending, and then during a 1-2 frame second of the ending, have to Screenshot a picture, look at it and notice the gibberish words on it look close to another puzzle, and figure out what it says, where to start, and where to go. I am Shocked This one was ever even completed, and the first time wasn't even done correctly! The guy posted the answer after cracking open the game and getting it! and as far as I know, NO ONE has ever figured it out without looking the answer up online.

For the first one, I literally got that in less than 10 seconds. I thought we got beat over the head with clues on that one.

The second one I thought was obvious, but then I got the clue before I did that area. It would've been a little harder to remember those shapes had I been to the area first. Not that much harder, because it would've been something that I knew I hadn't solved, and I would've remembered the map, but still a little harder

The third one isn't illogical, it's just obscure like you wrote. And complaining about it is a little silly, since it's completely unnecessary to solve. I didn't do that one on my own, because I was unfortunately spoiled on the forums first, but believe it or not, there are people who enjoy code breaking, and it was in a pretty prominent spot...

The problem with criticizing puzzles is there is always someone else around that figured it out and is all to willing to hop on the Internet and point it out to you.

I can understand the completionist point of view. I'm only just into the third large overland area, so my impression may be wrong but given that the game does seem to have certain distinct areas, a percent complete progress report for an area would be nice. It would give you a chance to dig around for that last chest or secret area and some confidence that you don't need to ever come back to it. 3/5 secrets found type of thing. I could take it or leave it. It is very much old school to never know you missed something.

I think a good point that the OP made is the idea of not having to retread areas. Going back for food harvesting or to recheck for something does represent a bit of tedium and it's a fair criticism to call it out. A fast travel system of some sort wouldn't go amiss.

The problem isn't with criticism in general, it's saying that the puzzles were illogical. Maybe that was just the OP's frustration showing. Obviously most people don't like getting stuck, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that it's a "problem" with Grimrock 2, unless someone thinks that all games should be tailored to their ability, and any that aren't have a problem.

The tough part with these types of games is that you often can't be sure whether you just don't understand the hints you've been given, or you're actually missing a crucial hint and should come back later. I'm not a big a fan of the "hunt for clues" part, and I can understand where someone would get annoyed with working on a puzzle only to find that they missed what one of the stone heads said in some other zone, and thus really had little chance of solving the puzzle the way it was intended. I don't know a good solution to that though. If you always put all the pieces within easy reach, it sort of trivializes most puzzles.

I just figured out why I was having a lot of problems with this game. I'm in the second of my tries at finishing and I missed an Iron key in Desarune in both attempts. In both cases I went forward with the game and progressed significantly, yet was presented with significant puzzles which I had no idea about and, in my last try, I made as much progress as I could have and had to figure out that I had to go back to a very earlier area and finish the areas.

This problem would not have happened if the game were more linear. To figure that out you have to go back to a very earlier dungeon is kindof stupid in my opinion.

On the plus side I've been thinking of starting over with a Minotaur Farmer and a Ratling Battle Mage.