Grimrock

tantoedge wrote:I shouldn't be getting THIS frustrated at a game.
I want to like this game! I want to LOVE this game!
BUT For the umpteenth time am I looking up hotkeys for AutoHotKey.
I'm looking up ways to speed up my gameplay, or slow down the creatures?
<snip>
Challenge in gameplay is fun. Challenge in interface is dumb.

It's a pity that so many misinterpret this design decision for a interface quirk. Maybe one reason is that they assume the wrong games as base inspiration. It seems that the "Dungeon Master" loving people are fine with LOG, the "Eye of Beholder" only knowing crowd dis-like the more complex DM like magic system, while the Wizardry crowd dislikes the DM realtime aspect. Maybe somewhere it should be clearly stated in big bold letters that LOG is dungeon crawler in the spirit of "Dungeon Master", therefore real-time and with a complex magic mechanic.

Exactly!

And on top of that, you cant please everybody all the time!

Game description cant be more clear...

Tekken did have buttons to whip out combos, or more specifically, combinations of buttons that were otherwise a pain in the arse to successively press.
When I played Tekken, it would frustrate me to play against someone who couldn't correlate enough fingers or thumb strength to press both the block and a strike button to initiate a grab. So they would rely on the Grab button which was actually just a combo button.
So yes, Tekken did have that button. It resulted in grabby players.
There was also an all three buttons button which would press two strikes and block at the same time. This initiated different moves based on who used it.
Some would taunt, some would fall on the ground, some would do nothing.
People can argue that it's not a combo, and I would argue I'm not looking for a mouse button that let's me pass through the entire game. That would be an absurd but not altogether impossible macro.


In terms of not taking Rogues, I was not aware that they reached super human strength as such.
That's actually comical for me to consider.
My point was that the rogues are a non-class. They're just agile and ranged fighters. There are no doors to unlock, there are no traps to disarm, there is no rogue sense that will alert the player to the invisible pressure plates.
Rogues are effectively worthless in the design scheme.
You could split their skills between the fighters and the mages, and the game would lose nothing.


These complaints are not about difficulty.
The game isn't overtly difficult. I mean it has difficulty settings, but that's beside the point. The games difficulty is fine. It ramps well throughout the game, and the dungeons are very cool at times.

However:
The game is frustrating.

Let's use the Fighters Challenge as an example. Everyone loves to hate this one. This thing is stupid. Three ogres in the same room would have been a WAY better challenge instead of this gauntlet. A lot less frustrating too.
The game has laggy input and this section demands rapid input. Bad design.

The Fighters Challenge reeks of lazy design too. I'll fill this room and move on to the next section on my list.
Was it even playtested I wonder? If so, was it considered a successful design because it was really difficult to survive?

The player can easily overcome the challenge by leaving and returning tough. There's no skill involved there. There's no challenge.
It's not a 'challenge' and there's no point to this place aside from a shield. Just an item?



The timing puzzle for the Sword of Nex is a funny puzzle that demands exacting timing. Fine.
Isn't the puzzle challenging enough without respawning the flaming armour fellas? What's with the torch? That's not a puzzle, that's just fiddling, and annoying to require.

Why do I now have three separate swords (cutlass, fire sword and nex sword) all with decent ratings, and my axe user, or mace user both have nothing but the same slow, non-magical, non-special crap, axe and mace they've had for the last three floors?

Why is my unarmed crew doing more damage than the regular crew? What's the speed factor on punching, kicking, etc?
Yes, magic users have some cool spells, but I'm actually just better off in this game without magic users.


The simple truth is that there are not enough items in this game. Looking at the editors selection, I can plainly see axe and mace ignored.

There are lots of different food items. Very cool.
There is a nice variety of items to the game. Great.
There are not enough items in general.
As far as I'm concerned, I shouldn't be finding a crossbow twice unless I'm finding them around every other corner.
Where's a simple Crossbow +1? Where's a simple Sword +2?
How about a Weak but Fast Axe? A Mace with Reach?
You've got bracelets that each have a cost along with their benefit, yet I see nothing as such in any other gear.
You've got all sorts of armour slots, yet barely anything along the way. As a player, consider how long it takes to find a cloak for each individual. How many necklaces in the game? How about just gloves????!?

How about a quiver? Can I have a quiver, guys?
Can I have more Normal arrows? Why don't these archer skeletons drop any? What about the bow?


Challenge can come from limiting armament just fine, but that's Resident Evil. This is not Resident Evil and it's not trying to be.
If other people have been through Grimrock, where are their corpses? Where are the bodies of previous adventurers, and their gear?
Why don't I find backpacks with five or six throwing knives at once? Or a quiver full of arrows? A body of some ninja with a stack of shuriken?
Why are there not just more swords, axes, and maces? More armours, more potions?
Balance is one thing but player choice is another; and gameplay suffers when your players lack options.
You don't even see a player model! It's a single textured model and a sprite icon. A few sound effects if it's a special piece of equipment, although most of the existing 'special weapons' just mix existing spell effects with a simple weapon strike.

I'm throwing rocks, knives, shooting arrows, throwing grenades, shooting bolts, and switching all these various items and their projectors in the middle of combat. While firing spells.

How about a quiver?
The skeletons have quivers... can't I use one of theirs?


If it's such a travesty to consider a hotkey for spells, then how about a hotkey for LAST spell.
I get that the mage has to 'prepare the spell'. I had a hard on for this feature from the get go; I was like: "Oh wow! This game has a Magickola PDA with Fireburst Action!"
The spell's prepared though. Let me just keep firing it.

How about a hotkey for healing potions? How about a quick belt/bar/bag?

How about a quiver?


"I did the game without any extra help"
Good for you. You're not me, and you're not the other however many folks who have felt strongly enough to post here.
Feel smug, feel special, go ahead, you deserve it. I'm sure your parents are very proud of your accomplishment. I'm sure it pays your mortgage, clicking faster than any of us poor schlepps who are accustomed to game designers designing interfaces for fun games.
In the meantime, I want the developers to consider this fact: For every person who posts, there are plenty who don't. People like me are people who feel the game could and should be better. People who don't post, don't care and don't buy sequels.


As I said in my previous post: If people are building a community around installing and using a third party application in lieu of and to fulfill features your game lacks, it's time to accept that people want that in the game. Options menus exist for a reason.
That way, those with exceptionally quick wrists (young males) can leave that option off, and older folks with families and careers (like me) can still play these games. We just won't get that one achievement.


Also, I played Dungeon Master on SNES, Eye of the Beholder 1 & 2 on PC but I've never played the 3rd.
I loved Wizardry, and a bunch of the other '1st person RPG' games back then. There were LOTS.

If you didn't figured it out yet, Rogue is a ranged damage dealer or backstabber (you can chose either path). What's wrong with that?
Who said that rogue is a lock picker or trap disarmer? Only because one of the most known RPG, for the sake of political correctness, changed the name of one class form Thief to Rogue, doesn't mean that Rogues have anything in common with all those thievish abilities like lock picking and trap disarming. I mean they may have them and I'm ok with it, but term Rogue doesn't imply having them as a must.

Also it's worth mentioning that LoG is based on DM, and roles/classes are very similar to the original ones:
- Fighter, a melee damage dealer.
- Wizard, a magic damage dealer (+ some utility spells). Renamed as Mage in LoG
- Ninja, ranged damage dealer. Renamed as Rogue in LoG
- Priest, potion brewer. Removed from LoG. Having a Priest in DM was ok, because each character had several classes, but in LoG character is limited to single class, so having a class dedicated to brewing potions only would be awkward.

Maybe AH should leave a class name as Ninja, but I'm fine with Rogue and I really don't get your point here.

So I take it you really like quivers?
Couple of notes before I pass out my opinion of what you said.
I really wish you'd stop antagonizing us, and painting us as a pack of elitists who scoff at people who had trouble with the game/ didn't like the game.
It's not fair to me or anyone else to be barraged with taunts and judgements of character every time we want to discuss flaws or improvements for this game.

Secondly, please drop the sexual themes. We're pretty easy going on the forums, but at the same time, any youngster could be browsing these forums.

You complain about not having enough weapons, but given the length of the game, and the levels the players get to by the end of it, it is exceptionally well balanced.
Swords have an advantage because statistically, players will go for them more often than other weapons. From the top of my head, there are several maces to choose from. Not so much by the way of axes. You do make one exceptionally good point though. Magic weapons of classes other than sword/dagger seem to be missing.
One thing about Maces is that it's got a lot of variability in it as well. For instance, after defeating your first ogre you can decide if you want a really powerful, really inaccurate mace, or just a regular mace (power over accuracy)
P.s.I did want more reach weapons.

I never did the fighter's challenge. If I recall correctly, I didn't fulfill the pre-requisite to enter, or I was too scared to do it.

You mention why you don't see corpses of past adventurers all over Grimrock with their items and what not. And I have to disagree with you. In fact, all of the Valor armorset belonged to one Lord Perel.
It is believed that all of the items you find in the dungeon belonged to past prisoners/king's soldiers.
There are even corpses and skulls and bones scattered throughout the place.

Backpacks are missing, but there are bags and boxes.
Why everything is not kept clumped together? Why is it that the possessions of the former explorers are scattered all over the place, and in some cases hidden?
This is because of the dungeon inhabitants. I think the developers purposely stayed away from simple +1/+2 ect weapons to keep all items found in the dungeon meaningful. I was a big fan of how this game never took a generic approach to magic and I hope they continue like that.

Strangely enough, the one piece of equipment I was missing most were not quivers but rings.
You must also consider the premise of the game when you're playing before you start complaining about a lack of items. You were prisoners who started with nothing thrown into a prison. This is very much more of a resourceful, survival game from that description alone. It is not designed for all of your players to be well provided for. This is not bad design, but a game mechanic that was intended and done well. A lot of people like a little scarcity in their survival games for plausibility and increased tension.
Strangely, I never went very hungry inside Grimrock. Which I was glad because when my characters start to starve I get inexplicably nervous and clumsy.

This game was never designed to see yourself. It's not a third person environment.
The recall last spell is a popular suggestion in the thread Dr. Disaster mentioned, I believe.

I too, have enjoyed the game but was frustrated with the controls in some fights. I'm currently stuck at level 9 because my party doesn't seem strong enough to kill Ice lizards faster than their infinite respawn..

I have the following suggestions: the game could use 4 hotkeys just to "use" the main hand of any 4 characters. And when one of those hotkeys is bound to a mage and the rune selection pops up, why not using the NUMPAD ? The 3x3 rune subscreen is just that, a numpad.. Each key corresponding to a rune. Then the game could almost be played only using the mouse, and more efficiently, while keeping the rune system.

Default key binding example: character inventories switched to F1, F2, F3 and F4. 1, 2, 3, 4 attacks using left hand of each character. Shift + 1, 2, 3 ,4 uses the right hand. 4 is a mage ? Want to do a fireball ? Press 4 then with the right hand 7>9>6>ENTER on the numpad. Easy, efficient.

If the sequel keeps the rune system I hope it uses a similar idea to mine.

Tip for the ice lizards
Don't fight, run through! When I got to that point in the game, it was pretty obvious that those guys were just too powerful to clean them out and travel safely. So what I did was, I would explore a little bit of the room and hurry back to the exit. Often times a lizard would be on my tail. I'd kill it at the door. Every time, I would explore the room a little further and rush back. Until I had the path to safety memorized.

Some might say that that room is badly designed then. But it's not. The idea of that room is to put the player in too much of a hurry to give it serious exploration, and so any secret kept inside it has oh so much reward to it.
There are times when finding a secret is a greater reward than any item kept inside it.

tantoedge wrote:In terms of not taking Rogues, I was not aware that they reached super human strength as such.
That's actually comical for me to consider.
My point was that the rogues are a non-class. They're just agile and ranged fighters. There are no doors to unlock, there are no traps to disarm, there is no rogue sense that will alert the player to the invisible pressure plates.
Rogues are effectively worthless in the design scheme.
You could split their skills between the fighters and the mages, and the game would lose nothing.

Some RPG games implement the Rogue as a Thief, others implement it as a Ninja. LoG goes the Ninja route.

tantoedge wrote:Let's use the Fighters Challenge as an example. Everyone loves to hate this one. This thing is stupid. Three ogres in the same room would have been a WAY better challenge instead of this gauntlet. A lot less frustrating too.

Three ogres in a large open room with plenty of space to evade is no challenge.

tantoedge wrote:The game has laggy input and this section demands rapid input. Bad design.

The only laggy parts about the input are the player and the system. As soon as an action hand get's clicked it's action is done and then it's cooldown starts. Same goes for walking, depended on the amount of stuff carried.

tantoedge wrote:Why do I now have three separate swords (cutlass, fire sword and nex sword) all with decent ratings, and my axe user, or mace user both have nothing but the same slow, non-magical, non-special crap, axe and mace they've had for the last three floors?

The sword class seems to be the one with the most varieties of all weapon classes. Yet it's on par with maces. At level 6 you can have up to 5 different swords when fire sword is counted too. Also you should have 4 different maces including the ogre hammer. Only axes have less variety but you still should have 2 yet.

Speaking of non-magical: up to now you have no magical weapons beside any enchanted arrows or quarrels. Not every weapon class has a magic weapon and if it has one it is just one. All are found below level 6.

About that "not enough items" rant: this is silly.
LoG is NOT some AD&D or Wizardy game where you get stuff thrown at you at every occation until it comes out of your ears. You have to make do with what you find. You are controlling characters not cargo trucks; they don't need to carry around 3 sets of armor and 10 weapons each.

I loved Eye of the beholder. I never actually played dungeon master. But I don't mind different systems, the magic was an interesting experience for me. I prefer realtime to turn based, so all the better. It will always be that you will like some things and not others. I don't lash out at gameplay concepts, the only ones I really hate are those that consume significant amounts of your realworld time needlessly(bards tale 3 spellpoints) or designed solely to rob the player of money(too much to list in the modern world). Grimrock has neither of these. Eveerybody has there own standards though, these are just my concerns, I don't freak out over them.

tantoedge wrote: Why do I now have three separate swords (cutlass, fire sword and nex sword) all with decent ratings, and my axe user, or mace user both have nothing but the same slow, non-magical, non-special crap, axe and mace they've had for the last three floors?

Why is my unarmed crew doing more damage than the regular crew? What's the speed factor on punching, kicking, etc?
Yes, magic users have some cool spells, but I'm actually just better off in this game without magic users.


The simple truth is that there are not enough items in this game. Looking at the editors selection, I can plainly see axe and mace ignored.

At this point of the game (I think you're around level 7) , you should have these (reasonable) options :

Weapon (AttackPower/Speed/AccuracyChange)
-----------------------------------

Swords :
Cutlass (19/15/0)
Sword of Nex (24/13/+10)

Maces :
Warhammer (18/11/0)
Ogre Hammer (36/8/-20)
Flail (25/10/-5)

Axes :
Battle Axe (20/9/0)

Ok. I'll admit that, at this point, there are too few axes to choose from and that you had to stick with the base axe for a long time before finding the Battle Axe. But even if you don't have much choice, the Battle Axe is a correct weapon compared to what swords and maces have to offer. And there's nothing to complain about with Maces in my opinion. Did you by any chance miss some of these weapons?