Grimrock

Wow, Darios! Awesome post!

On my first playthrough on hard, I ran a sword fighter, a dagger rogue, a crossbow wielding rogue, and an earth mage. A few points of contention:

- Dex and Vitality really do very little for ranged characters, since they don't need Accuracy or Evasion and the extra point or so in elemental protection is negligible. The extra Vitality is nice, but most of the time they're not going to get hit anyway.

This is why so many people run Minotaur rogues, because their Accuracy penalty is nullified by wielding ranged weapons and their naturally high Strength and racial trait (Head Hunter) gives nice Attack Power boosts.

- I found a small annoyance with enchanted arrows and bolts: they lose their enchantment after hitting their target. The game regards them as two different ammo types, so they do not stack in your inventory and, unlike plain unenchanted ammo, you can't pick them up mid fight by just walking over them. It's a small thing, but ending a fight with 3 odd poison arrows and 12 regular arrows, and having to re-enchant was tedious. (Enchanting also uses your Mage's energy, possibly sacrificing his DPS in the short term).

- Not a big fan of two sword fighters because, while there are more swords in the game than any other weapon, one of your guys is gonna be wielding a mediocre hand me down for the bulk of the game. I'd rather have a melee rogue of any stripe, because, given armor requirements for Fighters, they'll be 8-16 points ahead on their weapon skills for most of the game.

- I do agree that Strength is nearly useless for frontline, melee based fighters (unless they want to wear plate). Vitality is much more useful for frontliners, athough on a recent run I had a human Fighter starting with 18 vitality and that might have been too much -- by the end of the game he had over 200 health, more than twice that of any other character.

- Frontline Dagger rogues have several advantages: they get a great endgame weapon earlier than anyone else, they have nearly as high an Evasion score as Unarmed for the bulk of the game, and -- most importantly -- you don't have to split their skills. No books required.

This means, after putting two points into Dodge (+5 evasion) you can dump every follow up point into Daggers. They'll have a competitive Attack Power compared to your other physical damaged based characters and they'll get their special attacks sooner. Dagger rogues will have a piercing armor early, a multi attack ability by dungeon level 5 or 6, and get their "kill" ability by dungeon level 10. Seeing your guy hit a mob for 200+ damage on a single swing when their 50 point ability procs is a lot fun.

- For mages, I'd suggest going all in with a single school, outside the necessary 10 points into Spellcraft. The reason being is simply damage. Splitting points gives you more utility, but it also gimps your DPS (and few of the schools really syngeryze well with one another.) Especially with Earth, which does not have burst damage of other schools and depends on melee tanking mobs in a Poison Cloud or ranged characters picking off weakened mobs affected by Bolt's cloud. Without a bigger commitment, the DoT damage of the clouds is far too weak; you're better off putting the points elsewhere. The same could be said for the marginal utility found in Ice and Air.

- Unlike other stats, Willpower (and the resulting Energy boost) only matters on level up. (Try this: Open up a saved game, select your Mage, and take his Conjuring Hat on and off. Notice his Energy level does not move). This means, if you're running multiple Mages, right before one of them levels, you can throw all your best +Willpower gear onto them for the calculation, then take it off and move it to another toon.

Wow, I wrote far more than I expected to. Anyway, great post & thanks for the read.

@Darklord - Thanks

Yeah, I didn't talk about Dex being useless for ranged people since I figured that was something everybody already knew.

Yeah, enchanted ammo is a pain. I wish they'd still automatically pick the stuff up when you walk over it even if it just turned into a regular arrow, and I also wish you could get them to automatically switch to any other available ammo once they run out of the enchanted stuff.

I think you underestimate the Sword of Nex. It's a damn good sword, even compared to the Dismantler. It definitely outclasses Daggers.

Regarding dagger rogues, your assessment comes with the assumption of putting points into Armor for a fighter. I actually don't do that since any evasion you can get for an armor-wearing fighter with the proper armor proficiencies pales in comparison to a fighter with no armor proficiencies and max evasion from stats, traits, the Parry ability, a shield, and the Lurker set. So, I actually make an Evasion fighter by doing that, which requires no points in Armor and is quite effective. This means I can dump all points into Swords, which easily outclasses Daggers since the attack difference between the two is actually pretty considerable. Unfortunately I can only make one Evasion-based sword fighter this way. The only way to make a second good Evasion-based fighter would be to make an Unarmed fighter. Barring that, I tend to make the second one a vitality/protection Fighter. But even then I ignore Armor since, like I said, the Evasion you save from armor proficiencies doesn't do much for me since beyond that your Evasion isn't actually going to be very high, since you don't get the nice 20 point boost from the Lurker set. So, I still put all of my points into the Sword skill for that guy, since I know he's got the health to take any damage that comes his way, which again outclasses the damage from a Dagger rogue. Unless you're really good with backstabs, I guess.

Yeah, going all-in with a single school with a Mage does have the benefit of continuing to power up that element, which is always good. But Uggardians being immune to Fire is a real issue, since there's so many of them around a certain point of the game. You either need to branch out at least a little, or just not focus on fire at all, or have two mages. This is kinda why I'm not a huge fan of mages. This would be mitigated if there were elemental Mage weapons like the Shaman's Staff and Zhandul's Orb that applied to Ice and Air, but there aren't. A shame.

Darlos9D wrote:(...) Unfortunately I can only make one Evasion-based sword fighter this way. The only way to make a second good Evasion-based fighter would be to make an Unarmed fighter. Barring that, I tend to make the second one a vitality/protection Fighter. But even then I ignore Armor since, like I said, the Evasion you save from armor proficiencies doesn't do much for me since beyond that your Evasion isn't actually going to be very high, since you don't get the nice 20 point boost from the Lurker set.(...)

I guess you can split Lurker set to provide each swordsman with 10 point boost.

Darlos9D wrote:I think you underestimate the Sword of Nex. It's a damn good sword, even compared to the Dismantler. It definitely outclasses Daggers.

Regarding dagger rogues, your assessment comes with the assumption of putting points into Armor for a fighter. I actually don't do that since any evasion you can get for an armor-wearing fighter with the proper armor proficiencies pales in comparison to a fighter with no armor proficiencies and max evasion from stats, traits, the Parry ability, a shield, and the Lurker set. So, I actually make an Evasion fighter by doing that, which requires no points in Armor and is quite effective. This means I can dump all points into Swords, which easily outclasses Daggers since the attack difference between the two is actually pretty considerable. Unfortunately I can only make one Evasion-based sword fighter this way. The only way to make a second good Evasion-based fighter would be to make an Unarmed fighter. Barring that, I tend to make the second one a vitality/protection Fighter. But even then I ignore Armor since, like I said, the Evasion you save from armor proficiencies doesn't do much for me since beyond that your Evasion isn't actually going to be very high, since you don't get the nice 20 point boost from the Lurker set. So, I still put all of my points into the Sword skill for that guy, since I know he's got the health to take any damage that comes his way, which again outclasses the damage from a Dagger rogue. Unless you're really good with backstabs, I guess.

Yeah, going all-in with a single school with a Mage does have the benefit of continuing to power up that element, which is always good. But Uggardians being immune to Fire is a real issue, since there's so many of them around a certain point of the game. You either need to branch out at least a little, or just not focus on fire at all, or have two mages. This is kinda why I'm not a huge fan of mages. This would be mitigated if there were elemental Mage weapons like the Shaman's Staff and Zhandul's Orb that applied to Ice and Air, but there aren't. A shame.

It's not so much that I underestimate the Sword of Nex. It's a great weapon. The problem with a two sword fighter set up is that, for the bulk of the game, one of your guys has a gimp weapon. You can't get the Distmantler until the very tail end of level 8 (for all intents and purposes, level 9). This means that for 2/3 of the game, your second sword fighter is using an out of date weapon. He's fighting the ogres in the vault with the Cutlass you found on level 5.

You're right that Daggers don't do the same max damage as swords, but as I mentioned you can get the Assassin's Blade pretty early, and this is a fast weapon with a decent AP bonus, life leech, and an Accuracy buff.

Not sure I understand your armor setup. Are you saying neither of your guys takes light armor at all? Or then wears it and eats the evasion penalty? Doesn't that mean you're getting hit constantly? What kind of vitality is that toon carrying?

I never even had much of an issue with Ugguardians, even with a sole fire Mage. The shield is enormously helpful, and by endgame there are so many secondary fire resistance buffs that their damage is pretty well nerfed.

Oh okay. Sorry I tend to think in terms of endgame. Yeah before you get the dismantler, the non-Nex guy is stuck with the Cutlass. But that isn't so bad. Keep in mind that a bulk of your attack and accuracy probably comes from your Sword skill. Somebody with sword skill and the cutlass I still feel is better off than a guy with the same level in dagger skill and the assassin's dagger, simply because the guy with the dagger doesn't have the promise of an even better weapon later on. Life leech is cool I guess but not something I rely on, especially for an evasion-based character.

Yeah, neither of my guys take light armor at all. The evasion-based guy only wears clothing (and eventually all the Lurker stuff), and the other guy just takes the evasion penalty. The second guy is a minotaur who I put 6 extra vitality into, and give him the Healthy and Tough traits. I also give him the Tome of Health you find pretty early on. By the end of the game this guy is pushing 300 HP, and wearing the full set of Valor armor, Evasion be damned. He gets hit a lot, but isn't dying anytime soon. A true tank.

Merethif, you make a neat suggestion. Also, the guy not wearing the Lurker hood can substitute in that feathered cap which gives a Dex boost, and the guy not wearing the Lurker boots can wear those green shoes that do the same. It might be worth playing with that. I wonder how much more they'd get hit after losing 10 Evasion each, though.

It's not so much that I have trouble with Uggardians, since my party as a whole can definitely take them out. It's just that I'm annoyed that my bigass fireballs are basically useless against them, which means my fire mage is doing no damage with his main method of attack. I guess I could give him bombs to throw or one of the spell casting weapons, though.

Speaking of bombs, something silly I like to do is hold one in my cursor when I know enemies are around, and also lay out a few more singular ones on the ground in a place I know I can retreat to. Then I just manually throw them at enemies so the characters all still have their own weapons free. Frost Bombs are particularly handy in tight spots. They are way more effective than investing in ice magic, if you know what key points to use them at. Like when you get backed into a corner by a giant crab.

Darlos9D wrote:Oh okay. Sorry I tend to think in terms of endgame. Yeah before you get the dismantler, the non-Nex guy is stuck with the Cutlass. But that isn't so bad. Keep in mind that a bulk of your attack and accuracy probably comes from your Sword skill. Somebody with sword skill and the cutlass I still feel is better off than a guy with the same level in dagger skill and the assassin's dagger, simply because the guy with the dagger doesn't have the promise of an even better weapon later on. Life leech is cool I guess but not something I rely on, especially for an evasion-based character.

No worries, and I can see your point -- I'm almost loathe to point out that the Assassin's Blade has an AP within 2 points of the Cutless, a faster attacking speed, and the aforementioned Accuracy boost.

Yeah, neither of my guys take light armor at all. The evasion-based guy only wears clothing (and eventually all the Lurker stuff), and the other guy just takes the evasion penalty. The second guy is a minotaur who I put 6 extra vitality into, and give him the Healthy and Tough traits. I also give him the Tome of Health you find pretty early on. By the end of the game this guy is pushing 300 HP, and wearing the full set of Valor armor, Evasion be damned. He gets hit a lot, but isn't dying anytime soon. A true tank.

Hehe, that's pretty damn clever, but a touch lopsided for my taste. It's cool you made it work, though.

It's not so much that I have trouble with Uggardians, since my party as a whole can definitely take them out. It's just that I'm annoyed that my bigass fireballs are basically useless against them, which means my fire mage is doing no damage with his main method of attack. I guess I could give him bombs to throw or one of the spell casting weapons, though.

Yeah, I hear that. The shield makes up for it a bit. I think at most, if I really wanted spell based attacks with my fire Mage against Ugguardians, I'd go three points into Ice or seven into Earth. Any more seems like too big a sacrifice considering Fire's massive burst potential against every other mob in the game.

Your "floating cursor bomb" trick is a good idea, too. I'm going to have to try that next time.

just finished the game for the first time playing default party, and thinking about my 2nd run cause I'm sure I missed a ton of things.

briefly looked through advices here, but tried not to spoil my own research. Probably, I won't go for a all-around-optimal and best strategy. I'm sure it will be fun to win with not-so-pumped characters, using not the best weapons... I'm sure the game has a lot of possibilities to do so even on hardest difficulty )

will definitely take a mage, but not the earth/fire one...
will use throwable weapons
will use daggers and axes most likely, as I already tried swords and maces
I think I won't go for races with start bonuses for stats, as they look negligible in the long run...

podbelski wrote:just finished the game for the first time playing default party, and thinking about my 2nd run cause I'm sure I missed a ton of things.

briefly looked through advices here, but tried not to spoil my own research. Probably, I won't go for a all-around-optimal and best strategy. I'm sure it will be fun to win with not-so-pumped characters, using not the best weapons... I'm sure the game has a lot of possibilities to do so even on hardest difficulty )

will definitely take a mage, but not the earth/fire one...
will use throwable weapons
will use daggers and axes most likely, as I already tried swords and maces
I think I won't go for races with start bonuses for stats, as they look negligible in the long run...

You know, you give me an interesting thought. Just going with a Human with the Skilled trait may very well be a powerful build, since gaining skills is easily more important than any other starting bonuses. I should mess with that. Especially since I've never used humans before, lol.

That said, Vitality and Willpower are really good to pump up as high as possible to start. Strength and Dex less so.

Also I bet throwable weapons wouldn't be HORRIBLE. Just a bit less powerful than bows, since you get less attack out of them, the strength gains are negligible, and you can't enchant them for some stupid reason. But between the cooldown reduction abilities and the double-throw ability, you'll still be belting out the damage I'm sure.

Darlos9D wrote:

podbelski wrote:Also I bet throwable weapons wouldn't be HORRIBLE. Just a bit less powerful than bows, since you get less attack out of them, the strength gains are negligible, and you can't enchant them for some stupid reason. But between the cooldown reduction abilities and the double-throw ability, you'll still be belting out the damage I'm sure.

I wasn't much of a fan either, but lots of folks swear by Minoraur rogues wielding throwing axes. The synergy is there -- high natural strength coupled with more strength bonuses in the Throwing tree.

But I found Missles a better bet. They have a higher attack power bonus (plus, you get to double dip: one bonus from the weapon, another small one from the ammo). You can get a top notch Missile based weapon very, very early in the game. As Throwing, you're pretty much stuck with shurikens until nearly endgame.

The only two drawbacks (and they're small ones) is that the dexterity bonuses in the Missiles tree are almost completely useless for backline rogues, especially Minotaurs, and Throwing weapons have faster attack speeds than Missile weapons at the same level.

I kinda wish the two trees had been combined, so you could simpy have a ranged based physical damage dealer with a wider pool of options.

Brude wrote:

Darlos9D wrote:

podbelski wrote:Also I bet throwable weapons wouldn't be HORRIBLE. Just a bit less powerful than bows, since you get less attack out of them, the strength gains are negligible, and you can't enchant them for some stupid reason. But between the cooldown reduction abilities and the double-throw ability, you'll still be belting out the damage I'm sure.

I wasn't much of a fan either, but lots of folks swear by Minoraur rogues wielding throwing axes. The synergy is there -- high natural strength coupled with more strength bonuses in the Throwing tree.

But I found Missles a better bet. They have a higher attack power bonus (plus, you get to double dip: one bonus from the weapon, another small one from the ammo). You can get a top notch Missile based weapon very, very early in the game. As Throwing, you're pretty much stuck with shurikens until nearly endgame.

The only two drawbacks (and they're small ones) is that the dexterity bonuses in the Missiles tree are almost completely useless for backline rogues, especially Minotaurs, and Throwing weapons have faster attack speeds than Missile weapons at the same level.

I kinda wish the two trees had been combined, so you could simpy have a ranged based physical damage dealer with a wider pool of options.

Either that or the two skillsets need to be differentiated more. Not really sure how though.

Man, all these build ideas, but I don't really want to run through Grimrock again. It's getting a bit old. Sigh, I can't wait for fan-generated content to start happening. This games longevity will be nearly infinite at that point.