Grimrock

Flashheart wrote:However it's possible that as features increase - gameplay decreases. Sounds weird, but could be true.

I do know that risk because I design maps and gameplay concepts myself. Enough points were not directly related to gameplay though.

Flashheart wrote:It's also derivable from the manual you got when you bought the game - you say it's worth the money, so I'll assume you bought it.

Bought the digital release on goodoldgames. Have not taken a look on the as well downloadable manual yet. Will catch it up now that you reminded me.

WaterKnight wrote:Apropos fiddling in inventory. Why is there no belt of 2-3 item slots next to each character's combat ui? This would allow the fast use of some necessary flasks or bombs. And please have a weapon swap like in Diablo 2 - Lord of Destruction where a character can have two sets of weapons/shields, they only use one at a time but you can quickly change it with a hotkey/button. That's particularly desirable for your archer rogues because they are melee-ranged-hybrids that often need to switch.

I don't quite see the need for a quickswap of weapons, even for rogues. In Diablo 2 I could well see the benefit and need, but in a dungeon crawler like LoG I can't. If rogues are a melee/range hybrid it's because you make the rogue into one. So adding a quickswap mainly for one class, and even then only for a player who choose to make a hybrid melee/rage skilled... It seems a bit excessive, in my opinion.

WaterKnight wrote:The ogre could charge up 1-2 seconds to smash the ground (all 8 fields or more) around him, thereby requiring a change of pace and gaining new chances for his assault attack. Include more field-based, chess-like mechanics and temporary buffs.

Seems like a good possibility for an improved ogre.

WaterKnight wrote:I do not like elemental spells that much. Shock and fire were virtually the same except dealing a different damage type. Suchlike classifications turn the combat selective. High difficulty should particularly require the combination and synergy. But seeing the skill trees and later gameplay, I got the feeling that it would have been better to max 1-2 attributes because fights were that simple. Also, poison was useless. You only infected yourself or blocked off paths, limited your view and got less damage out of it + over time, does not stack. Should have inflicted the disease debuff on enemies to have some unique meaning.

Another posibility with Earth magic would be to make it more earth-like instead of poison. Perhaps causing the ground to root your enemy to the ground for a short time, allowing you to gain some distance for ranged attacks, or just flee. It could be to conjure fists of stone from the ground or walls to pummel your enemies.

WaterKnight wrote:Equipment flexibility: Currently, you find a new best weapon, shield or piece of cloth once in a while and abandon the old one as it is rendered useless/superfluous. Add something like durability to equipment items in order to force the player to keep a variety, managing where to deplete this resource. It would grant a meaning to those mountains of lances and bulwarks you gain from skeleton soldiers. Make different versions of melee skeletons, carrying different standard weapons. Also place more loot in general. Particularly the early levels lack flexibility in all aspects.
Although the game features some freedom in which order to pass the rooms and merges the paths together, it would have been good to make the player pick a stage once or twice out of two levels optionally and have some longer backtracks by having to revisit old places.

This may work if you had the possibility to repear arms and armor. However, it's unlikely that you'd find a smith who has set up a shop in the middle of a monster infested dundeon, just in case some lost adventurers may stumble by. And without the option of repairs it would make equipment management a pure hell. People would carry around as much as they could, and there would have to be much more equpment scattered around. Personally I think item durability would cause a sereous loss concerning playability and fun in this kind of game.

WaterKnight wrote:To a big part, the levels are very dark. Would not recommend it to my brother since his eyes are rather bad. There is no internal gamma/lumina/contrasts setting. Even with good vision, it would surely look better with more small light sources. Roots on walls and the herb items could emit some mystical light since they possess special effects and are ingredients of potion brewing. Torches on the ground should burn too and in general, you should be able to see the state of a torch without putting them in a hand, icon and model should not change in inventory/ground. Clicking with a torch on a wall holder should swap an existing torch immediately.

Well, it is a dungeon after all. A gamma or light contrast setting may be a good idea for those who want or need it. Personally I think the lightsetting is excellent as it is, as it adds atmosphere to the game. A few additional light sources would be nice. Like some strange moss or magic lingering at walls, making a light source, but not as bright as a torch.
If the torches should burn regardless where they were placed they should have an option to extinguish them. Otherwise it would be no use to carry along a few extra in case you arrive at a place where they are scarce.

WaterKnight wrote:One thing I really miss in this dungeon crawler are speeches and comments of the party. Its less vivid and you do not get impressions of the characters you play. Then again, you do not really have story progress. There are sound issues. The BGM is very subtle, there is no battle theme. Some sounds are sticking out in volume and pattern. At least have different hurt/death sounds for different races and genders. The undead spearmen are too extreme. A single one coveys the impression that a whole group is walking. Light/Shadow spell have no sound/feedback at all.
There are not any cinematics or new scenarios in the game.

I, too, missed some speech and comments. I remember EotB where a random character could comment on something, often giving a clue to a secret or puzzle.
As for story; you're four prisoners tossed into the dungeon and you are simply trying to escape alive. There's not much story which can progess, is there? The spearmen are wearing much armor so it would seem natural that they make some noise. And it adds to the tension being unsure if there's one or several undead soldiers patrolling nearby. Why should Light and Darkness have sound feedback? Personally I don't miss it, and one can't hear light, or the lack of it. I don't see why every spell must have a sound feedback, but that's me.

WaterKnight wrote:More unique keys and artifacts would be appreciated. It is better for writing walkthroughs and does not appeal as lame to have the tenth brass key.

Brass keys are most likely common because they would be easier and cheaper to make than gold keys, or gem adorned.

WaterKnight wrote:Next to the editor, which is interesting for me, think about implementing simple multiplayer support as it would be an innovative step in this genre. PvP arenas, time race, special coop missions with team puzzles would enable new horizons in and with the chess-like environment.

Why sould everything have to have a PvP or multiplayer option? What's wrong with someting being single player only? And besides, how would you make LoG PvP-possible concerning how players move their characters?

WaterKnight wrote:More stuff to add:

• destructable walls
• type of hidden switches on the floor/ceiling
• custom death animations for each enemy type and leave a corpse behind or blood
• some unprecise indicator how much life an adversary has left
• more utility in abilities

Destructible walls is an good option, perhaps to get a shortcut or locate a secret. However, secret switches and buttons on the floor and in the ceiling seem a bit odd.

WaterKnight wrote:Ending

SpoilerShow

I did not get the ending at all. I was sure that the undying one would be a giant Kraken because of the repetitive earthquakes, the Goromorg disciples and the everywhere spawning arms from beneath gratings. The prisoners could be fed/sacrificed to this monstrosity. I am not angry because this was not the case but I do not see how the portrayed cult or the remaining bestiary relates to the actual conclusion. When you imprison something, especially something as mechanical as this, you would not make a religion out of it nor build solvable puzzles, place keys everywhere etc. Until the end, instead of explaining the issue, you get stubbornly attacked as if your doing was righteous. Furthermore, why did they not just kill the thing themselves (since they had the ability to do it)? Why did the mountain collapse? I have completed the game without finding Toorum's remains, so I still assumed that the telepathic voice would be of him. How did the apparatus whisper anyway? What was the kings motivation now to throw you in these dungeons? The apparatus could not have pulled the strings either to lead the player through because then there would not have been scrolls like "You have proven worthy". Even in the final battle, the Order of Fire rather concentrated on taking the player down than stopping the device they guard. Not a thing was clarified like how you escaped or how you experienced your won freedom.

Encephalon wrote:I don't quite see the need for a quickswap of weapons, even for rogues. In Diablo 2 I could well see the benefit and need, but in a dungeon crawler like LoG I can't. If rogues are a melee/range hybrid it's because you make the rogue into one. So adding a quickswap mainly for one class, and even then only for a player who choose to make a hybrid melee/rage skilled... It seems a bit excessive, in my opinion.

Alternative for the potion belt or other classes could have had the charged weapons in backhand for example.

Encephalon wrote:Seems like a good possibility for an improved ogre.

Combat became better when more enemy types were mixed.

Encephalon wrote:This may work if you had the possibility to repear arms and armor. However, it's unlikely that you'd find a smith who has set up a shop in the middle of a monster infested dundeon, just in case some lost adventurers may stumble by.

It is a survival mission. Do it yourself or just add some magic. You are even placed in a bit mechanical mountain. So having some machine or repair bot is not that illogical. Maybe even restore it at the crystals that do their mystical work or have repair kit/patch items. If it was done at the crystal, I would make the player select a character he/she wants his/her equipment be repaired because the crystal visits are just too frequent.

Encephalon wrote:And without the option of repairs it would make equipment management a pure hell. People would carry around as much as they could, and there would have to be much more equpment scattered around. Personally I think item durability would cause a sereous loss concerning playability and fun in this kind of game.

I am usually one of these players who do not burn up any charged items, have to keep them until the end of the game and need to find any treasure. Just to play along with the authenticity of the survival scenario and to get a fair picture of the hard difficulty I decided to scrap this habit. So ingredients, potions, bombs, food all are consumable resources. What I want to say: Once you are over the fact that you lose something to progress, it is not such a serious issue. In Lands of Lore 1, there were enemies that could corrode your armor away. The weapon swap method from above could help that you do not suddently stand there without a weapon.

Encephalon wrote:Well, it is a dungeon after all. A gamma or light contrast setting may be a good idea for those who want or need it. Personally I think the lightsetting is excellent as it is, as it adds atmosphere to the game. A few additional light sources would be nice. Like some strange moss or magic lingering at walls, making a light source, but not as bright as a torch.

The lighting engine is good. Would have just liked a more complex placement now and then and an inclusion of more colors to portray a mystical dungeon with unique sceneries.

Encephalon wrote:If the torches should burn regardless where they were placed they should have an option to extinguish them. Otherwise it would be no use to carry along a few extra in case you arrive at a place where they are scarce.

Do not understand. Carrying them around does make sense, else they would not get from point A to point B. It would just make a cool animation throwing them through a dark tunnel to illuminate the path or to have individual lighting on the ground that does not even reach the ceiling. Placing them in hands is generally better because less light is absorbed by the ground, more evenly diffused.

Encephalon wrote:As for story; you're four prisoners tossed into the dungeon and you are simply trying to escape alive. There's not much story which can progess, is there?

There are thousand ways. Just imagine that the king has sent a second party of his finest knights into the dungeon after having discovered something and these chase after you from another set of tunnels. You could even have two parallel controlable storylines. Or the group gets split up. Or they learn of new methods how to escape. Or they get confronted with their vile past in memory displaying hallucinations. Or they decide to rescue a child they have seen being abducted by a group of goromorgs etc etc etc

Encephalon wrote:The spearmen are wearing much armor so it would seem natural that they make some noise.

It still seemed unnatural.

Encephalon wrote:And it adds to the tension being unsure if there's one or several undead soldiers patrolling nearby.

Most of time, there are several and would like to get a heavier expression from the squads.

Encephalon wrote:Why should Light and Darkness have sound feedback? Personally I don't miss it, and one can't hear light, or the lack of it. I don't see why every spell must have a sound feedback, but that's me.

Would have liked to know e.g. whether casting it while it was already active restarted the timer or sometimes I was not even so sure whether I had successfully cast. Some simple neutral sound indicating the meaning or the impression of the party to it would be okay. Can mention Diablo 2 at this point again.

Encephalon wrote:Why sould everything have to have a PvP or multiplayer option? What's wrong with someting being single player only? And besides, how would you make LoG PvP-possible concerning how players move their characters?

Have not said everything would need PvP but afaik this genre have not had it til yet. Knowing where you come from, I can return the question right back: "Why does everything need an editor?" It is an additional bonus and does not get into conflict with the existing content. It grants further visions and opens the gate to a range of new possibilities, thereby holding customers. That is why I spoke of simple support, to not overwhelm the developers with work and not pose permanent expenditures. I am just curious how this experimental playground would work out.

Encephalon wrote:However, secret switches and buttons on the floor and in the ceiling seem a bit odd.

This was mainly proposed to require the player to enlargen their view. In general, the buttons were almost always on eye level, bit easy after time.

Encephalon wrote:

SpoilerShow

The dream messages was not from Toorum, they were from the Undying One. And if you paid some attention to the messages you received in your dreams you got a clue. The messenger said the dungeon was built for another purpose, but then twisted and filled with traps and secrets. Perhaps the goromorg did not want to kill the undying one, as it may have been the last of it's kind. Or perhaps the goromorg knew what would happen if the undying one was destroyed; a massive explosion which would obliterate the entire Grimrock Spire and possibly more.
And why couldn't it have been the undying one that pulled the strings that led you to it? You get the answer thrown right in your face once you have repaired the machine cube.
The manual clearly states why the prisoners are at the top of the Spire and the kings motivation for doing so. As for the ending; perhaps it was intended that you did not know the exact fate of the prisoners. Did they die in the explosion? Or find a teleporter at the last minute? It's an open ending, so the possibility for a sequel is open.

WaterKnight wrote:

Encephalon wrote:If the torches should burn regardless where they were placed they should have an option to extinguish them. Otherwise it would be no use to carry along a few extra in case you arrive at a place where they are scarce.

Do not understand. Carrying them around does make sense, else they would not get from point A to point B. It would just make a cool animation throwing them through a dark tunnel to illuminate the path or to have individual lighting on the ground that does not even reach the ceiling. Placing them in hands is generally better because less light is absorbed by the ground, more evenly diffused.

To clarify; the torches burn for a limited time as long as they are held in a hand. So if they should continue burning while kept in your inventory they would eventually burn out. And who would put a lit torch into his backpack?! Though I agree that being able to throw a lit torch down a hallway to illuminate the path would have been nice.

WaterKnight wrote:

Encephalon wrote:As for story; you're four prisoners tossed into the dungeon and you are simply trying to escape alive. There's not much story which can progess, is there?

There are thousand ways. Just imagine that the king has sent a second party of his finest knights into the dungeon after having discovered something and these chase after you from another set of tunnels. You could even have two parallel controlable storylines. Or the group gets split up. Or they learn of new methods how to escape. Or they get confronted with their vile past in memory displaying hallucinations. Or they decide to rescue a child they have seen being abducted by a group of goromorgs etc etc etc

Good point about the second party of knights. However, as I understand from the story there is only a single entrance, the one at the very top where the prisoners are tossed in. Had there been more I would imagine they would have been found long ago. The group being split up seems difficult to handle. How should they be controlled? Pause one group while you play the other, then swap? It would also be the matter of how the group are split class-wise.

WaterKnight wrote:

Encephalon wrote:Why sould everything have to have a PvP or multiplayer option? What's wrong with someting being single player only? And besides, how would you make LoG PvP-possible concerning how players move their characters?

Have not said everything would need PvP but afaik this genre have not had it til yet. Knowing where you come from, I can return the question right back: "Why does everything need an editor?" It is an additional bonus and does not get into conflict with the existing content. It grants further visions and opens the gate to a range of new possibilities, thereby holding customers. That is why I spoke of simple support, to not overwhelm the developers with work and not pose permanent expenditures. I am just curious how this experimental playground would work out.

I don't get your meanin with "knowing where you come from". And as far as I'm concerned not everything need an editor. I see your point that an editor would be usefull for those interessted in creating their own dungeons, and I see your point of making new possibilities. But seeing how one moves around in a game as LoG I have a hard time seeing how PvP would work, at least PvP combat. The PvP puzzle or time runs may also be a problem, as several people here have complained about timed puzzles being too difficult for different reasons.

Encephalon wrote:To clarify; the torches burn for a limited time as long as they are held in a hand. So if they should continue burning while kept in your inventory they would eventually burn out. And who would put a lit torch into his backpack?!

Nah, I did not mean that they should burn in inventory or spend light there. Should just show the same icon or be well visible if a torch has juice left. There are a lot more curiosities about the carry capacities if you want to put that on the scale. Fire arrows also look like they ignite the bag.

Encephalon wrote:Good point about the second party of knights. However, as I understand from the story there is only a single entrance, the one at the very top where the prisoners are tossed in. Had there been more I would imagine they would have been found long ago. The group being split up seems difficult to handle. How should they be controlled? Pause one group while you play the other, then swap? It would also be the matter of how the group are split class-wise.

Thought more of like they do enter the same entrance but their ways go apart after some wall shuts down and another path opens up or anything like that.

Encephalon wrote:I don't get your meanin with "knowing where you come from". And as far as I'm concerned not everything need an editor. I see your point that an editor would be usefull for those interessted in creating their own dungeons, and I see your point of making new possibilities. But seeing how one moves around in a game as LoG I have a hard time seeing how PvP would work, at least PvP combat. The PvP puzzle or time runs may also be a problem, as several people here have complained about timed puzzles being too difficult for different reasons.

Most games today are about multiplayer, so I assumed you wanted to ask why LoG should have it too. The announcement of the editor here has caused cheers. So my question was why that one innovation is welcome, the other is not. At least because you declined it just like "meh, there are enough other games offering that". As for my own ideas, in PvP, you would run around a mini dungeon like a 9x9 square, tossing all kind of missile weapons at one another, trying to get kills or be the last one standing in fast-pace round/respawn systems. The room could feature several mechanics like traps you can activate, the center could have a crystal as focal point. Spawning teleporters, items, monsters or anything adds momentum. Hell, there could even be minigames like in the map Uther Party or escape maps feature in Warcraft 3. A cube rolls around the floor and always gets faster. Try to push the other players into it or take away the parts from it in order to gain a move speed bonus yourself to survive in the long run. 2nd example you are a vampire, try to stay away from light while a pillar in the center with a torch rotates. However, you can lit further torches or extinguish them via fire/ice and you may use the shadow spell as a rescuing move. 3rd set all players on different small isles next to each other. Consecutively spawn various enemies sieging those isles. The faster you are, the more time you have to shoot bolts at the other players to finally bring them down.

Yeah, well, proper team puzzles maybe not as they require too much coordination and faith in the other players. But some coop missions or hero defense à la stop the waves of incoming enemies before they kill our castle sounds okay. I think there should be an option that players do not block each other but rather play a single hero to specialize their tasks.

First, I don't mind criticism.

Also, stating that something isn't hate thread, doesn't mean that it isn't one.

Such criticism, as you have presented, might be good during development or beta testing. Sorry, but at this point it sound like ranting. One can see potential in unfinished products, ideas, designs rather then finish products. The impression of hate thread is stronger because of putting all your "don't likes" in one place - from some good points (like your automap concerns, the issue with shock and fire magic or lack of comments of the party members) to not-so-good ones (of course only according to my personal judgement what is good and what isn't). Then you spiced it up with sounds and visual rants. I know you were probably doing this to spare forum space and avoid creating several threads, but making several threads would probably be better in this case...

Unless, of course you're making a review. Review is usually composed of things that you like about product and thinks that you don't like - if review is good one it also include reasons why you don't like something and ideas how it could have been made better (something as you did in your thread). But if it was a review, where are those "good sides"?

My problem is (it may be only my personal issue of course) that your thread looks like review rather then suggestions thread. It really sounds like a lead designer giving feedback to his team after seeing first prototype of a game. I don't know what is a purpose of your demands. Because at this point I doubt developers will make such drastic changes to the game as adding weapons durability or weapons switching.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that weapons durability or weapons switching are horrible ideas and I hate games with such features. I enjoy Spiral Knights where weapon switching is a core combat concept. But sometimes there are just more then one way of making things right. You can make two games - with different features and solutions, and still both games will be good.

Merethif wrote:First, I don't mind criticism.

Also, stating that something isn't hate thread, doesn't mean that it isn't one.

Such criticism, as you have presented, might be good during development or beta testing. Sorry, but at this point it sound like ranting.

Couldn't agree more, well said.

WaterKnight - if one reads your first post, he is clearly aware of the frustrated undertone between your lines. This is not just objective criticism, you vent your displeasure.

What really bugs me is, that quite all your points are about requesting MORE. Sure, there are change requests/ideas, but the majority of your points are going to ask for more skills, more sounds, more items, more AI variation, more UI functionality etc.

I'm a software developer myself (not games). Sometimes, when I go to one of our customers to present a new software release, there is a good chance to meet a person which is requesting a lot of new features. While this not a bad thing in general, we had almost all of those suggestions already on our list or at least on our mind (not all, of course, but the majority).

The problem is always: resources. Not enough time, not enough manpower. And the common approach? You prioritize. Get all requirements on the list, and do the most risky but most needed things first.

And so I'm sure that, if the good guys from Almost Human read your first post, more than 70% of your suggestions were already on their list. But, they are an indie studio, they are just four guys working hard on a great game. There are so many ideas, it's impossible to do it all. And the common approach? They prioritize. And I think they've done a f... good job.


That said, I don't disagree with all your suggestions. Just tried to give another point of view; and maybe, you choose a different strategy on publishing your thoughts next time.

Sometimes I get the feeling some people miss the point of this game.