Grimrock

You start with 1-7 skillpoints (Minotaurs 1, Insectoid/Lizardmen 3, Humans 4, Skilled +3), and gain 4 skillpoints per level. There is no real level cap, but from what I gathered, you should gauge around level 14.

If you play a human, or any race with the Skilled trait, you can dump 2 points in another tree, and still get 50 maxed out at level 13. But yeah, Fighter full unarmed and Rogue full unarmed nets a 15 health advantage to the fighter, nothing more. You should check what the other skillpoints award.

Keep in mind that Vitality/Willpower do not retroactively reward bonus Health/Energy for levels already gained. For example, Fighters can pick up +2 Vitality in Athletics for only 5 points (and gain +1 Strength as well). If you pick that at level 2, it nets you a total of 12 bonus Health at level 14. If you pick that at level 1, thanks to Skilled, it nets you a total of 18 bonus Health at level 14. If you pick it at say, level 13, it nets you 1 bonus Health at level 14.

muun wrote:I don't think anyone is recommending ALL skill points in unarmed.

I am. Right now. Put all points in unarmed and don't worry about anything else. The evasion bonuses will make up for it.

If you go FIghter you will have more health, if you go Rogue you will be able to put 2 points in Dodge for +5 evasion. That's not bad, but consider if it will make you reach 50 Unarmed one level later than expected. I think I'd rather go Fighter.

Evasion is much better than protection. Go rogue lizardmen on front row with full dex, then pick fist fighter and max it for huge eva bonus. Remember to use the lurker set for orgasm. You will hardly miss attacks as well.

Decided to try the Rogue route...

Lizard rogue, all points in DEX and all the rest in VIT.
Traits Fist Fighter and Skilled
Dumped 2 points into Dodge as recommended and all else in Unarmed.

Will share the results later
I'm also trying a back-row rogue with assasination and daggers

You'd be better off with Fist Fighter, Evasive and no points in Dodge until you max Unarmed (maybe I'm biased - I love Evasive ).

Chiller wrote:

muun wrote:I don't think anyone is recommending ALL skill points in unarmed.

I am. Right now. Put all points in unarmed and don't worry about anything else. The evasion bonuses will make up for it.

Seconding this. An all-in approach to Unarmed Combat makes you very difficult to kill, and your damage output is nothing to sneeze at either.

I'd suggest taking Fist Fighter and Agile, and going Human. Here's why:

If you finish the game at level 13 (pretty typical) with a Human character, you have 52 skill points to distribute. That's just enough to max out Unarmed Combat and get the +5 evasion bonus from Dodge. A Lizardman wouldn't have the skill points to match that, and running out of energy is a concern with 50 points in Unarmed Combat due to the high rate at which you are triggering special attacks (midgame it's not an issue at all).

The reason I suggest Agile instead of Evasive is pretty straightforward. Evasive gives +7 evasion. Agile gives +4 evasion, +2 accuracy, and about +8 fire/shock resistance. It's a pretty close trade either way; but I'd trade 3 evasion for 2 accuracy and 8 fire/shock resistance. The decision to go with Human over Lizardman (and putting a point into Will instead of Dex) basically amounts to choosing three extra evasion over +1 accuracy and +4 fire/shock resistance. The extra Dex is worth picking Agile over Evasive, but not worth picking Lizardman over Human. It's a pretty close call either way, and if you plan on grinding a bit to get level 14, the Lizardman (with a point in Will to avoid energy penalties) pulls ahead of the Human since that extra skill point doesn't get you anything then.

Empyrean wrote:

Chiller wrote:

muun wrote:I don't think anyone is recommending ALL skill points in unarmed.

I am. Right now. Put all points in unarmed and don't worry about anything else. The evasion bonuses will make up for it.

Seconding this. An all-in approach to Unarmed Combat makes you very difficult to kill, and your damage output is nothing to sneeze at either.

I'd suggest taking Fist Fighter and Agile, and going Human. Here's why:

If you finish the game at level 13 (pretty typical) with a Human character, you have 52 skill points to distribute. That's just enough to max out Unarmed Combat and get the +5 evasion bonus from Dodge. A Lizardman wouldn't have the skill points to match that, and running out of energy is a concern with 50 points in Unarmed Combat due to the high rate at which you are triggering special attacks (midgame it's not an issue at all).

The reason I suggest Agile instead of Evasive is pretty straightforward. Evasive gives +7 evasion. Agile gives +4 evasion, +2 accuracy, and about +8 fire/shock resistance. It's a pretty close trade either way; but I'd trade 3 evasion for 2 accuracy and 8 fire/shock resistance. The decision to go with Human over Lizardman (and putting a point into Will instead of Dex) basically amounts to choosing three extra evasion over +1 accuracy and +4 fire/shock resistance. The extra Dex is worth picking Agile over Evasive, but not worth picking Lizardman over Human. It's a pretty close call either way, and if you plan on grinding a bit to get level 14, the Lizardman (with a point in Will to avoid energy penalties) pulls ahead of the Human since that extra skill point doesn't get you anything then.

I'll stick with first 2 pts in dodge for the +5 evasion. I always get 50 in unarmed anyway, as I use one of the skill books on each unarmed rogue. And I use lizardmen. Just makes things easier, particularly in the early game, when it matters. The last 4 points then go into anything that gives me another dex ... or strength if I'm feeling burdened. it doesn't matter by that time.

You guys are missing the primary difference in choosing FIGHTER vs. ROGUE for an unarmed character.

JarL wrote:You guys are missing the primary difference in choosing FIGHTER vs. ROGUE for an unarmed character.

SpoilerShow

If you carefully clear each level you will reach level 14 quite easily by the end of the game. You WILL max unarmed by the end game so the real question is what your secondary skill is going to be: Dodge or Armor. 16 into Armor gives you heavy armor proficiency and 17 into dodge gives light armor proficiency (8 in armor gives light armor as well). For this reason a human fighter at lvl 14 with unarmed and aggressive traits needs 2 books of infinite wisdom to get 16 armor and 50 unarmed.

So you end up with a heavy armor unarmed character that can equip the full Valor set. You should choose a human over minotaur because minotaurs require the skilled trait, lvl 15, or the 3rd book of infinite wisdom to acquire the necessary 66 skill points (use a minotaur head hunter for one of your ranged characters). If you are a min/maxer and dont mind grinding go with an aggressive/fist fighter minotaur and grind out lvl 15 on him.

My primary point is that Armor as a second trait is superior to dodge. The extra HP you get is just icing on the cake.

Well, i would argue that evasion is superior to protection by a big margin. Nevertheless, you bring up an interesting build. Unarmed would give your human the strength he needs to wear all that armor, and the "ninja in a can" might be fun to try. You'd end up with pretty high evasion, as well as all the protection. Have to consider the "opportunity cost" of him hogging two of the books, but it's doable. Also, there's the added bonus of not having to throw all that lovely armor away. Worth checking out! ... BTW, I've only reached 14 on one character. I do "carefully clear each level", but don't grind.

I would go with a Minotaur Unarmed Fighter.

Head Hunter. Fist Fighter.

20 in Strength.
19 Vitality.

Put your first skill into Athletics, then with your first level up, pump all 4 into Athletics for the bonus vitality and strength.

After that, I would get 8 into Armors for Light Armor.

The rest put into Unarmed. If you use two tomes of infinite wisdom, you will have 50 points in it at level 14.

Or if you want to fully invest into this character, you could alternatively use three tomes of infinite wisdom and instead of going for the bonus health in Athletics, go for the Heavy Armor in Armors.

That's how I would do it personally.