Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion

[Leki]

@ Granamir
... sorry m8... you completly missed the point of mods for money/free discussion and now you are trying to lead discussion to some pseudo demagogical fields. I'm not going to play this game with you , esspecially if you believe that people here are stupid/without education or experience...

[Diarmuid]

This is getting off topic.

[Azel]

I give Granamir a friendly pass since I think there is a bit of a language barrier here; things are possibly being lost in translation.

I think what Granamir is trying to say is that some of the best inventions in the history of the world were not driven by money. That is very likely true, especially when it comes to great scientific discoveries. The problem is that while illustrating this point, Granamir, is also condemning money as a whole. This is the part that may be getting lost between the nature of "web arguments" coupled with language/translation barriers.

Money is not evil (nor is it recent). People can be evil and thus can turn the use of money evil. It really comes down to people. And a Mod'ing Community just happens to bring together the type of people who willingly devote time, energy, and talent to bring to life some of the greatest inventions; something that would likely not happen if money was a factor.

That's a point that I can agree with

[Leki]

This is getting off topic.

Yes.... Sorry that I used that complicated construct insteed of your simple way... but you know me

[Isaac]

And personally i think money is one of worst thing roman empire left to us (but ofcourse they was primitive and money was easiest way to solve their problems related to beeing a very big and heterogeneous empire...i'd like to think, even if maybe it's just a dream, that we'r more advanced than they was).

Money allows for anyone to make a trade for a common item that everyone else will generally accept for trade; it's a service, so it comes with a fee ~by way of a usage tax. It means that a person can trade their skill to various individuals, without having to accept bead-crafts, raw fish, fingernail decoration, and on demand tree removal as payment; they can just get the money item, and trade it to whomever for whatever it is they want, or to square up any debt they need to pay. My gosh, why would anyone consider that primitive?

**Aside: I have no qualms with a person trading [mod] skill for money; it's no different than selling digital illustrations they have made, or selling server-side website code; but unless there is a way to protect a person's work, the system fails them, and their work gets stolen [infinitely duplicated with no compensation; and that means the same thing to the person that did all the work].

All modders should be allowed to give away their mods for free if they want to, and not have them scooped up, repackaged, and sold, or attempted to be, by a 3rd party. We're just not there yet. About the only thing we have is the ability to forcefully declare that anyone has the right to use them for free.

[Zo Kath Ra]

It means that a person can trade their skill to various individuals, without having to accept bead-crafts, raw fish, fingernail decoration, and on demand tree removal as payment; they can just get the money item, and trade it to whomever for whatever it is they want, or to square up any debt they need to pay.

There should be a "barter mod" for LoG2.
All items would have a value, but it would be stored internally and not be visible to the player.
Only NPC's would have access to the internal values, and maybe PC's would have a skill that lets them estimate the value of an item ("this sword is worth about 3 torches").
Then you could haggle with shopkeepers, but it would be *really* complicated...

[Isaac]

There should be a "barter mod" for LoG2.
All items would have a value, but it would be stored internally and not be visible to the player.
Only NPC's would have access to the internal values, and maybe PC's would have a skill that lets them estimate the value of an item ("this sword is worth about 3 torches").
Then you could haggle with shopkeepers, but it would be *really* complicated...

Fallout (the real ones I mean).

They had a serviceable barter system. The game presented the player with a wooden table [interface]; ~as in, "bring what you have to the table; for trade". The player would pick what they had, and what they wanted; the NPC would accept if it was at least an equal trade.

*Personally though, I'd prefer it to adjust their estimation of the value, based on how many of the item they already have, and perhaps a sampling of of the estimated value from other's they know of; (like other merchants; and nearby NPCs).

I've already suggested in the past, that a Fallout style barter UI would make good use of the existent item icons in the game.

[Granamir]

@ Leki
I tought the point was if mods are better with or without money involved, but i admit i'm not so good in english so maybe i misunderstood something.
So would u please tell me which is the point of this discussion?
I don't want to make this tread a flame so let's stop here.

@ Azel
Ty m8

@ everyone
I just wanted to tell i'm against payd mods, but i'm not a god so maybe i'm wrong, and open to change my mind if it's the case. That's why i explained my though about it.
...so, since none seems interested in thoughts exchange let's say: i'm against payd mods. (for me is understood, but maybe is not the same for everyone, that anyone can have his idea about this)
End of discussion for me.

[Leki]

@Granamir
The point wasn't "if mods are better with or without money involved". Yours post was about it.

The topic only opened discussion about the possibility of paid mods. You gave some arguments why you believe that free mods are better than paid mods (focus to money vs free mind creativity etc...). You started to use some demagogic arguments like "money are bad / unnatural" etc. Then the discussion went off topics.

What I tried to say is: Sorry, m8, with all respect, you are not able to judge any modder and his creative process - as I noticed, I believe modders are "renaissance people" in some way. They have skill, knowledge, talent or what ever it needs - to make a mod. And I strongly believe that each modder is capable enough to decide if theirs mod will be shared for free or for money - and it's not the choice of the audience / mob - if you want or mod users. So my point of view is: I welcome possibility to make the choice "for money or for free", by my self.

Over a year ago I decided that I wanna decide what will happen with the content I made - not the others. I removed my mods from public space and I share it only with selected users. I also make content for people who is asking for it via PM etc. I always share my knowledge, not only in this community, but in real life as well - but at the moment - after that sh*tstorm made by mob... well, I guess people are not worthy enogh for it, as Thor said, and to do it selective in some way - was a good decission. For more about this point of view go through this links:

There is no "community". The past 48h have shown this. There never was.
Donate: It generated less than $500 over 4 years.
Some People Are Pissed That Skyrim's Paid Mods Are Gone

Short story: I really dislike that a lot of mod users started to yell: "modders must work for free / to share for free / because of something (usually sh*t arguments)". Well. Mod users have a choice as well - to pay for the mod or not, so what the fcuk is this ship about? Don't wanna pay - go and do better one and share it for free! Or what? Easier is to blame the moder, right? Because to post the sh*t on the formum takes only few sec, insteed of thausends hours of work, right? I'm happy for this small community. But this happens only becasuse AH is selling the game. They decide to give it for free or for money. We made the decission to pay for. Thats all. No blame, no shitstorm etc. Where is your's math "for money = worse product"? Moders today are in the same situation as an independent develpers some time ago, when digital games distribution and paymend methods etc was only future thing...

Well, time to shut up. I'm sorry for a long post and typos.
I hope, you see the whole picture now.

[Azel]

Nice links there, Leki. I was keeping up with the media on this for awhile but seeing how the nerd rage community was attacking it so much I decided to ignore it. Glad to see that there are articles and people rallying against the tyrant-style attacks. As one quote pointed out, it's pathetic that if people (nerd ragers) can't have something their own way, they will spend huge amounts of effort to tear it down for everyone. It's a cyber-bully type mentality, but I guess everyone is allowed their "day in the sun." These haters surely spent a lot of years getting physically bullied in the real-world; any online-based industry gives them a medium to retaliate from a safe distance.

I wouldn't worry about it too much though, as these things tend to work themselves out naturally. In Skyrim's case, it was clearly a mistake to force change on its already working model of "free Mods." Going forward, games can and will be released using the Paid-Mods approach (I already envision Game Editors with Premium features). This will be done from concept to execution, and all the online Petitions and Blog/Forum spam in the world won't stop it.

I just wonder which game will be the first...