Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion

[Eleven Warrior]

John are you saying $1 - 5 for a object or so? omg we can all make those kinds of things. So I take the dagger and add +1 to atck and charge $1 dollar so you can use it lol.

I do hope you mean new sets etc....

If you guys want to be on this site because you want to make money then you are on the wrong site yeah. I suggest you go some where you can make a $1 or 2. This site is about sharing not PROFIT!!!!!!!

Dammmmm what wtf is going on here???????? If you guys want money then go somewhere else Yeah!!!!! Don't bother the community with imam for sale. I love everyone's work here and to see it gone because guys want to sell it, dammmmmmmmm what next???

EDIT: THIS SITE IS FOR PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SHARE IDEAS AND CUSTOM OBJECTS NOT FOR MONEY END OF STORY.

[JohnWordsworth]

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John are you saying $1 - 5 for a object or so? omg we can all make those kinds of things. So I take the dagger and add +1 to atck and charge $1 dollar so you can use it lol.

I do hope you mean new sets etc....

If you guys want to be on this site because you want to make money then you are on the wrong site yeah. I suggest you go some where you can make a $1 or 2. This site is about sharing not PROFIT!!!!!!!

Dammmmm what wtf is going on here???????? If you guys want money then go somewhere else Yeah!!!!! Don't bother the community with imam for sale. I love everyone's work here and to see it gone because guys want to sell it, dammmmmmmmm what next???

EDIT: THIS SITE IS FOR PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SHARE IDEAS AND CUSTOM OBJECTS NOT FOR MONEY END OF STORY.

@Eleven Warrior: Do you know what Patreon is? Did you click through and read the link Isaac posted before posting a knee-jerk reaction to my post?

1. My post refers to Patreon - a system where artists/creators of all kinds can ask for donations. In return, the people who donate regularly (say, offer $1 per 'thing') will typically get some internal communication from the creator. Often, for a bit more money ($5 in the example) the donators actually get some input into the creative process - they might get to vote what is created next or have input on the final item. The donations are optional. I think this is a really nice way of allowing creators to get a bit of recompense (which ultimately means they can spend more time doing this stuff) while giving gamers a chance to get specific items that they want in the game.

2. When I say "games that allow you to drop-in single items" I clearly don't mean LOG - but games like Cities Skylines, where modders can add new buildings to create a more personal experience and the item creation process is involved / requires professional skills (not just copying and pasting a script entity). Even something like Skyrim could benefit from this.

3. Is it not possible to have a balanced debate without making it personal? If I propose that modding in general (across all games) would be better if people got more donations through Patreon, it doesn't mean (a) I want any donations or (b) that I think we should just do it here. The whole point of this thread is to have an interesting discussion and you swoop in with a personal attack.

Again, if you had bothered to read about Patreon you would understand that it's a user-driven donation system, so "omg we can all make those kinds of things" is completely irrelevant. Yes, you could make a bunch of cloned items, but it's highly unlikely people would bother to go to your Patreon page and donate to you is it? There is definitely no "charging" involved and no less incentive for creators to have a strong community.

No offence, but c'mon. When have I ever worried about sharing stuff freely? Are you honestly saying that you think I am here for money and not because I love the community and making mods/games? I'm a little offended by your accusation to be honest.

I also think it's offensive to the whole mod community to say that modders who put thousands of hours into their work don't even deserve donations for their time. If people want to donate to people creating mods so that more mods are made and those mods receive ongoing updates / support - why is that a problem? Donations are not about "raw profit" and how is it doing to prevent people from sharing? I honestly believe all modders and indie devs would work full time on their projects for free if they could, but real life simply doesn't allow that and if me supporting someone with a track record with $1 or 2 is going mean another awesome piece of content for me to play - I will do so.

Of course, it's entirely possible you thought I was talking about hard selling mods. If that's the case, maybe you should actually read about the topic before posting offensive/ranty response to something in your head instead of on the page?

[Leki]

Amen, John.

[Phitt]

Two things about the 'Patreon' system:

1. In the end it's just a different name for crowdfunding, wether you call it Kickstarter, Early Access, Patreon or something else doesn't make a difference. I think all kind of crowdfunding platforms have the same problem: it ends up well in some cases and it is just a rip-off in many other cases. Wannabe devs promise a lot of things and often end up doing almost none of the things they promised. In most cases this wasn't even an evil plan by the devs, they just lost motivation, bit off more than they could chew or didn't get as much money out of it as they expected. But the result is the same. The people who donated feel betrayed, and rightly so. It may work out for small stuff like a new building for 'Cities', but it would almost certainly end up badly for a lot of larger projects.

2. The whole argumentation of this guy doesn't make any sense. He's looking for a job and modding 'takes time away from his job search'? That's quite ridiculous. When a company asks him to come around for a job interview he says 'nah, sorry, I have to do some modding today'? And instead of writing and sending out applications he sits in front of his computer modding I guess? Looking for a job is hardly a full-time job. You look for job offers, send applications to companies and then you wait. That takes a few hours per week at most. Instead of talking nonsense about how he'd love to mod for free, but isn't able to because [insert silly reason here] he could at least be honest about it. He currently doesn't have a job and sees modding as a good way to earn a bit of money. So in other words, he's doesn't see modding as a hobby, he sees it as a job replacement and his main reason to do it is money. I can't blame anyone for wanting money (who doesn't like money?), especially not someone who doesn't have a job. But I still believe this guy is doing it for the very wrong reasons and he's not doing anyone a favor with his approach to 'modding'.

That said, I'm all for voluntary donations. I know from personal experience that donations don't work out (got exactly 2 donations in almost 10 years of modding with several 100k downloads, one of which happened because I fulfilled someone's special requests), but with a more prominently placed 'donate' button (maybe a window that pops up when you download the mod) the dl:donate ratio could maybe increase from 500k:1 to 5k:1. But I doubt Valve and Bethesda are interested in this approach anyway. They want to make money, and if someone is paying money for a mod on the Workshop (donation or not) Valve and the publisher of the game better get a big cut from it or it's not going to happen. And no one will donate money if big companies get 75% of it.

[Granamir]

People that like free market are used to say something like that "competition makes people obtain better products/services", that is clearly and obviously a LIE, as anyone with a brain can see (if u haven't a brain think to cellphones or cars or even shoes, and think how they changed during years...20 years ago celphones would last a life, not mentioning battery, now after a couple of years or less u have to change it; 30/40 years ago cars would last a life, nowadays after 10 years u have to change it; same thing for shoes now u can use them only for a season or 2 if u'r not a girl).
Competition (especially but not only involving money) make only things work harder, slower and without harmony.
Beeing more specific, if we involve money in modding (over already mentioned problems) u probably have a flattening of ideas because everyone would tend to make a mod to sell it not to enjoy it, so he or she would just do what people say they want (and people usually don't really know what they really want) making creativity die.
Plus there would be more problems for those that want to make a good mod because they would have to spend more time thinking about money, how to gain money, if mod they are creating will gain money, rights related problems, if they should buy right for something (a picture, a sound/music, a model, a script [hahahahah, last one is a joke]) or if that would be only a loss of money (that they have to spend in advance, from they pockets).
Plus, being specific to steam workshop, at the moment i cannot post my mod there because i have to spend at least 5$ buying something to activate workshop...that i'm obviously not going to do...this to say that their money managment is one sided, and unfair to me, that means we modder are saw like cash cows not like a resource.

To finish,
free things are always welcome, paid things are always not welcome.

Looking things from user side, i'd prefer to spend 10 minutes in a shit mod i had for free, before i trash it, than to spend 30 mins in an average mod i had to pay 1$, before...abandon it (that i would not do because i payd for it and it menas i have to play it...making me waste more time in the end).

So...

Everything free for everyone!!!

[Leki]

Well... I must live in different realm...

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... and sorry m8, the rest of your post is as well...

[Azel]

All we have to do is look at Grimrock itself for this part of the debate. Grimrock 1 and 2 are very much part of the money market; if you get Grimrock for free then you probably stole it lol

Without the money behind Grimrock we likely wouldn't be here discussing how bad money is for Grimrock Mods

[Granamir]

@ Leki
Yes u probably live in your own realm. In real life (not only in our rich, western and modern culture) evolution of things is not related to free market, competition and money. If at all evolution of money and free market depends from evolution of products/services.
Probably u'r young and haven't still saw the world...but maybe u forgot what u studied at school (assuming school in your country is similar to my country school) where we studyed about prehistory and begining of history and where we can find diagrams exactly like those u posted about cars and cellulars but related to surviving tecnology, like fire, weapons and tools.

@ Azel
I just made an example, that maybe was not understood.
And we was talking about mod payment not game payment.

@ everyone
Just to let u know, money is an invention of last centuries. We were born when money was already all over the world and this let us think it's natural and even that is not possible to live without them, but obviously (for those with an open mind) this is just our small and blind point of view.
Everything is in continuous evolution (that money are involved or not), science and technology are not evolving because of money but because of those that have ideas, open mind, that are creative and that seek improvement. If at all science and technology evolution is restrained by money because if there are not money to spend in research, nowadays, it's hard to get improvement (but not impossible yet).

[Zo Kath Ra]

@ everyone
Just to let u know, money is an invention of last centuries.

The ancient Romans had money...

[Granamir]

@ everyone
Just to let u know, money is an invention of last centuries.

The ancient Romans had money...

Yep, Greeks too, and they are relatively recent in history of the world or in human history (that starts approximately around 10000 years ago).
Not all ancient cultures had money.
And personally i think money is one of worst thing roman empire left to us (but ofcourse they was primitive and money was easiest way to solve their problems related to beeing a very big and heterogeneous empire...i'd like to think, even if maybe it's just a dream, that we'r more advanced than they was).

Btw my point was on invention. Money are human invention and as all of them can be good or bad, usually thay are good when in early stages of life and become bad in time...i guess that more than 2000 years is enought for money; time to change, so lets start from little things like free software (or mods in this peculiar case).