Disregarding the 25% cut (which makes the whole thing greed-centered and exploitative) I am slightly warming to the idea after a night of sleep - even though it still feels wrong.
More possible benefits include more moddable games, better mod tools and more modders. Like Open Source software, I'm sure many people would still make awesome mods for free which would help to keep paid for mods in check.
Still internally very divided on this!
Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
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JohnWordsworth
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Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
My Grimrock Projects Page with links to the Grimrock Model Toolkit, GrimFBX, Atlas Toolkit, QuickBar, NoteBook and the Oriental Weapons Pack.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
The question is what you think modding is. 'Paid mods' are no mods to me, I think 'user-created DLC' would be a more appropriate term. You won't get more modders, you will get more 'DLC creators'. And personally I doubt there will be as many free mods as you believe. Sure, for small mods most people will probably not bother (even though if you look at the current Workshop list there are actually almost exclusively small or even tiny mods on sale, like...a hammer...wow). But I seriously can't imagine that anyone would offer a large (or even medium-sized), polished mod for free anymore when he sees that similar mods get sold a few thousand times with a $5 tag on them.
And you can't really compare that to open source software since for other software distribution is much harder and usually it is either a niche program that only very few people are interested in or an alternative to already existing commercial software - if it had to compete with commercial software it wouldn't work out. When you upload to the Workshop you only need to add a price tag and you're good to go. That's just too tempting.
It will also be funny to see how all those companies who couldn't release mod tools for legal or other reasons so far suddenly can release them without problems. But yes, that's the only benefit I see. At least you can possibly make some small changes to games more easily with the proper mod tools you otherwise wouldn't have. And if a game wouldn't have had any mods at all then user-created DLC is probably better than nothing.
But the days of an unlimited amount of weird, funny, cool and sometimes even professionally made mods will be over, and that's not worth it at all in my opinion. And I can't stress enough how disgusting it is that the big companies like Valve and Bethesda get by far the largest share of the profit. It is the brave new world where everything is commercialized and turned into profit. Micro-transactions, then they started selling patches and updates as 'remastered Edition' or 'Director's Cut' and now this. Bah. Wonder what's next.
And you can't really compare that to open source software since for other software distribution is much harder and usually it is either a niche program that only very few people are interested in or an alternative to already existing commercial software - if it had to compete with commercial software it wouldn't work out. When you upload to the Workshop you only need to add a price tag and you're good to go. That's just too tempting.
It will also be funny to see how all those companies who couldn't release mod tools for legal or other reasons so far suddenly can release them without problems. But yes, that's the only benefit I see. At least you can possibly make some small changes to games more easily with the proper mod tools you otherwise wouldn't have. And if a game wouldn't have had any mods at all then user-created DLC is probably better than nothing.
But the days of an unlimited amount of weird, funny, cool and sometimes even professionally made mods will be over, and that's not worth it at all in my opinion. And I can't stress enough how disgusting it is that the big companies like Valve and Bethesda get by far the largest share of the profit. It is the brave new world where everything is commercialized and turned into profit. Micro-transactions, then they started selling patches and updates as 'remastered Edition' or 'Director's Cut' and now this. Bah. Wonder what's next.
Last edited by Phitt on Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
Like John I'm divided on this, and most of my points and concerns like better modding tools and dividing the modding community into two, have been mentioned already. Some random thoughts:
I see many similarities with being a modder and being a indie game developer. The indie developers I know are very friendly and helpful and we don't see ourselves as competitors. So personally I don't see paid mods (or paid games for that matter) automatically ruining things. Sure there would be cheap cash grabs, but I'm sure there also would be true labours of love, which would shine and make the others look like garbage.
Ultimately I think it's because money is not why we make games or mods. I see my work more like a hobby that I'm very lucky to get paid of doing it. Yes, monetary matters will make things more complicated and many unfun things will creep into it (contracts, taxes, employer-employee relationships, copyright matters etc.). But without getting paid, I would have another full time job and I would have maybe about 5 hours a week max to work on games. And those 5 hours would be less productive because those would done late at nights. So, maybe for some modders, getting paid for the hard work they are doing, would enable them working even harder and make even better mods.
On the other hand, I totally understand Phitt, minmay and others, who hate the whole concept of paid mods. It is our responsibility as a company to listen to you guys. If this is what the majority wants (free mods), then my heart is with you guys and I would not hesitate to vote against paid mods, if it would come to that. We haven't been approached by Valve on the matter, so it's possible they are after the big fish at this point.
I see many similarities with being a modder and being a indie game developer. The indie developers I know are very friendly and helpful and we don't see ourselves as competitors. So personally I don't see paid mods (or paid games for that matter) automatically ruining things. Sure there would be cheap cash grabs, but I'm sure there also would be true labours of love, which would shine and make the others look like garbage.
Ultimately I think it's because money is not why we make games or mods. I see my work more like a hobby that I'm very lucky to get paid of doing it. Yes, monetary matters will make things more complicated and many unfun things will creep into it (contracts, taxes, employer-employee relationships, copyright matters etc.). But without getting paid, I would have another full time job and I would have maybe about 5 hours a week max to work on games. And those 5 hours would be less productive because those would done late at nights. So, maybe for some modders, getting paid for the hard work they are doing, would enable them working even harder and make even better mods.
On the other hand, I totally understand Phitt, minmay and others, who hate the whole concept of paid mods. It is our responsibility as a company to listen to you guys. If this is what the majority wants (free mods), then my heart is with you guys and I would not hesitate to vote against paid mods, if it would come to that. We haven't been approached by Valve on the matter, so it's possible they are after the big fish at this point.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
I guess I should elaborate on why I object to monetized third-party mods. This clause in the modding and asset usage terms:is very common in games that support custom levels or similar content. I am sure most of them use it in the interest of getting more money (free mods are a lot more attractive to the end user) or protecting their IP, but rules like these also have the effect of making it nearly impossible to encumber mods with sponsorship or draconian licenses. By allowing monetization you lose that. This is my primary objection.
I am not convinced the "quality" of mods would increase (though as I basically said, this really doesn't matter to me either way). I know there are a lot of changes I could make to my own games and mods that would make them more marketable, which is what I'd be concerned about if I was trying to make a profit, but I don't, because I believe the game or mod is better without said change. Attempting to monetize any art will compromise the artistic vision behind it. Certainly in a society where money is required to live comfortably, everyone wants to find some kind of compensation, but the people who are able to mod video games in the first place are very well off already. By denying tangible rewards for modding you enforce good-faith participation.
That all said, I don't have a problem with commercial software existing in the first place (I bought both Grimrock games, after all...), and making as much money as possible for shareholders is the entire purpose behind corporations, so I won't call this act immoral or anything. I just know that I will refuse any and all ties with it, in hopes of doing what little I can to improve the environment.
Also, this situation means mods will have their own DRM in the future, so have fun with that.
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You cannot charge money for your mod. Using voluntary donations or advertisements in moderation are acceptable on the websites used for distributing the mod but not within the mod itself.I am not convinced the "quality" of mods would increase (though as I basically said, this really doesn't matter to me either way). I know there are a lot of changes I could make to my own games and mods that would make them more marketable, which is what I'd be concerned about if I was trying to make a profit, but I don't, because I believe the game or mod is better without said change. Attempting to monetize any art will compromise the artistic vision behind it. Certainly in a society where money is required to live comfortably, everyone wants to find some kind of compensation, but the people who are able to mod video games in the first place are very well off already. By denying tangible rewards for modding you enforce good-faith participation.
That all said, I don't have a problem with commercial software existing in the first place (I bought both Grimrock games, after all...), and making as much money as possible for shareholders is the entire purpose behind corporations, so I won't call this act immoral or anything. I just know that I will refuse any and all ties with it, in hopes of doing what little I can to improve the environment.
Also, this situation means mods will have their own DRM in the future, so have fun with that.
Grimrock 1 dungeon
Grimrock 2 resources
I no longer answer scripting questions in private messages. Please ask in a forum topic or this Discord server.
Grimrock 2 resources
I no longer answer scripting questions in private messages. Please ask in a forum topic or this Discord server.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
I'm with Phitt and Minmay regarding this issue; and it is an issue. Modding is fun and acts as a service to those who wish to delve further into the world or want a simple change to the title in question.
On Steam there are people are defending the practice justifying it as right and fair. It isn't right, nor is it fair because a modder will now become a new pathway for lazy publishers/developers who won't put the effort into polishing the title; well, It seems the consumerism and corporatisation are leading the way in all forms of art. It is better to create your own title.
Modding is an art, and should remain that way. Modders have created some of the best experiences on PC, and are even better than the main game in some circumstances.
It's disappointing, but not surprising that this is happening.
On Steam there are people are defending the practice justifying it as right and fair. It isn't right, nor is it fair because a modder will now become a new pathway for lazy publishers/developers who won't put the effort into polishing the title; well, It seems the consumerism and corporatisation are leading the way in all forms of art. It is better to create your own title.
Modding is an art, and should remain that way. Modders have created some of the best experiences on PC, and are even better than the main game in some circumstances.
It's disappointing, but not surprising that this is happening.
Mods - Isle of the Deranged & The Allure of Nightfall
http://grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9513
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14762
http://grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9513
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14762
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
I'm not sure how people can think that money is a factor in a negative way here... considering that even though Skyrim supports this money model, their most successful Mod - Falskaar - shall remain completely FREE. It has over 1 million downloads, and it will remain free.
If half of what people are saying in this thread is true, then the evil Corporate Monsters would be charging for Falskaar. The intentions behind this decision are good, it seems that some individuals prefer to twist things in to a negative light.
Although, I can't really see this impacting the Grimrock community very much since it is quite small. There's no road map to get rich here! Grimrock is a great place for a novice to get started with the art of Mod'ing. I agree that it should remain free for Grimrock.
If half of what people are saying in this thread is true, then the evil Corporate Monsters would be charging for Falskaar. The intentions behind this decision are good, it seems that some individuals prefer to twist things in to a negative light.
Although, I can't really see this impacting the Grimrock community very much since it is quite small. There's no road map to get rich here! Grimrock is a great place for a novice to get started with the art of Mod'ing. I agree that it should remain free for Grimrock.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
This is a difficult topic, no doubt. Mostly because you cannot predict what a modding community will do with paid mods. Will there be a flood of garbage mods by people just looking to score a quick buck? I am sure there will be some of those. But I don't think it will decrease the amount of good mods in any way. In fact, if anything it may be incentive for people to devote more time to it. Or maybe even get new people to mod that would not have with zero monetary incentive.
This should work like any free market. If its a bad mod, it should get bad reviews and therefore less money. If it is a good mod, it should get more subscribers, better reviews, more money. That is incentive to make a good mod.
I have shown my work so far to a few friends and family members. And the first thing they ask is "are you getting paid for this"? I explain no, its a hobby. A very time consuming one, but one I do enjoy. But they think I should get paid for it anyway. To them, not getting paid is wasted effort and goes against the monetary world we all live in. I really don't see any issues with getting paid something for it. Personally will it make me work harder and devote more time to it? No. Unless I can live the dream like Petri for example and do this full time, I can devote only a portion of my time to it. Lately, my real job has more demand and I have worked little on my mod. And the thought of getting paid a few extra bucks if I start working late and pushing myself will never be worth it to me. But getting paid a little for what I do devote can't hurt.
This should work like any free market. If its a bad mod, it should get bad reviews and therefore less money. If it is a good mod, it should get more subscribers, better reviews, more money. That is incentive to make a good mod.
I have shown my work so far to a few friends and family members. And the first thing they ask is "are you getting paid for this"? I explain no, its a hobby. A very time consuming one, but one I do enjoy. But they think I should get paid for it anyway. To them, not getting paid is wasted effort and goes against the monetary world we all live in. I really don't see any issues with getting paid something for it. Personally will it make me work harder and devote more time to it? No. Unless I can live the dream like Petri for example and do this full time, I can devote only a portion of my time to it. Lately, my real job has more demand and I have worked little on my mod. And the thought of getting paid a few extra bucks if I start working late and pushing myself will never be worth it to me. But getting paid a little for what I do devote can't hurt.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
There's pros and cons, as John, I'm divided on it. I'm not saying that things will become a nightmare overnight, but I'm concerned about how the modding community might change, and here on Grimrock, it's an incredible one, where I met so many wonderful people... even if I have had less time to devote to LoG these past few months, it still remains a home for me.
But the 25%? That's pretty bad. Unity gives devs 70% on its asset store, and I think the Apple store and Google Play have similar conditions. And who gets the rest of the 75%? Does Almost Human even get part of it or it's all Valve?
If, through our mods, we can help indie devs like AH stay afloat and support them continuing developping new games, and keeping a game like Grimrock alive, I might be down for it. But if all goes to Valve, it seems to me like a bit of an exploit, making money off what hobbyists and indie developpers have created.
But the 25%? That's pretty bad. Unity gives devs 70% on its asset store, and I think the Apple store and Google Play have similar conditions. And who gets the rest of the 75%? Does Almost Human even get part of it or it's all Valve?
If, through our mods, we can help indie devs like AH stay afloat and support them continuing developping new games, and keeping a game like Grimrock alive, I might be down for it. But if all goes to Valve, it seems to me like a bit of an exploit, making money off what hobbyists and indie developpers have created.
Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
The intentions are most certainly not ~they are unabashed greed... hence the 75% off the top cut that Valve demands... As opposed to a 25% cut... merely for instance. Paid modding can be done well, regardless of what I or others [want toAzel wrote: The intentions behind this decision are good, it seems that some individuals prefer to twist things in to a negative light.
] believe... but this ain't example of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDyXIXyAZq0Re: Paid Mods on Steam Workshop - A Discussion
I would like to update my thoughts on this if Valve's cut would be 75%. That is ridiculous. How much time has Valve spent updating their Workshop? An update common to all games that will be participating I am sure. That time and cost of maintenance would nowhere near compare to the amount of time AH and modders put into their work. If its any more than 25% (and that is being EXTREMEMLY GENEROUS), then I'd vote NO.Isaac wrote:The intentions are most certainly not ~they are unabashed greed... hence the 75% off the top cut that Valve demands... As opposed to a 25% cut... merely for instance. Paid modding can be done well, regardless of what I or others [want toAzel wrote: The intentions behind this decision are good, it seems that some individuals prefer to twist things in to a negative light.