Dear Devs, great game but need clarification on role of DEX

[thimble]

This issue is sort of anti-dungeon master.

In dungeon master, the design was that you could learn almost everything you needed to know just by playing the game. You might make wrong guesses about the game, but the game would teach you itself.

For example, maybe you think that intelligence is the main stat of ninja skills. Then you gain a ninja level, and your dexterity goes up. Oho!

Maybe you think that there is no point in mana for a fighter, but later you realize everyone can cast spells, and then your 0 mana fighter fights an item that gives him a temporary pool of 5 mana points. Oho!

Basically you could get out of your mistakes and you could learn as you go.

In this game, we decide ahead of time how to allocate our statistics, and we will expect that dexterity is good for some class. However it's a "sufficiency" stat for people who fight hand to hand, not an "excel" stat. It helps them hit, but not to increase damage. It helps them to dodge, but mostly that won't work, and we should be avoiding damage through positioning anyway. Further, we're going to put dexterity on rogues in the back line, because that's the *longstanding* convention for what these stats are good for, and once we figure it out, we're going to be stuck.

I for one am now rolling my third party after having learned various things from the forum and game that weren't clear at the outset. This stuff should really all be in the manual. I'm not sure why it's so spartan. It shouldn't cost much to add pages to a PDF?

[Saxi]

To be fair it is pretty clear if you read what it says...with that said I made the same exact mistake because I just assumed. Live and you learn I guess

I think this thread is pretty solid evidence it isn't "clear". There are misleading indicators that confuse the issue, like the aforementioned dex bonuses in the missle tree, and the fact that the supposed "rogue race", the lizardmen, aren't actually going to be the best rangers.

Again, not upset. But it is counter intuitive, and could use clarification in future patches that dex actually isn't very important for a ranged attacker. They get hit less anyway being in the back row, so they don't even need a super high evasion score. Ironically, it appears Dex is far more important for a front row fighter.

Well after actually taking the time to read what DEX/STR did effect, it is clear. The confusion comes from people's experience from other games and what they expected it to do.

True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

[Renevent]

Well after actually taking the time to read what DEX/STR did effect, it is clear. The confusion comes from people's experience from other games and what they expected it to do.

Yeah, I disagree, and just gave you the reasons why. One description is not immune to being confused by other factors. But keep on saying that, and disregarding the fact that this thread proves it is anything but clear, and insulting everyone by implying they didn't actually read the description.

I actually didn't insult anyone, however you seem to be getting pretty aggressive. I also actually said I made the same exact mistake initially too, it wasn't until I went back and read the attribute descriptions closer that I realized my mistake.

[Renevent]

True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

Why is a dagger rogue completely useless? I've only used a bow rogue so far (and even with un-optimal stats he definitely isn't useless).

I'll take your word for it because I haven't tried it yet, but just theory-crafting I can see dex at least being somewhat useful for a dagger rogue.

[amnnor]

This is RPG 101 though, and I don't want to wait 3-6 months down the road to actually play the game. Not knocking the game, what I have seen is very true to the nostalgic game many of us bought it for, but this is a huge oversight. For me, it ruins a good part of the game. Rogues have always been my favorite class (I would even bet it is the majority favorite of most players) but the game is careered to a majority fighter make up. I'm sure it could be played with 1-2 rogues fairly easily, but the rogue is kind of useless in a party unless you go range in the back.

No duel wield, no point in using dex, what's left?

That's not true, there is a point for dexterity and for rogues, it just isn't what you want it to be. You seem to want to only have to pump one stat for each class. AH has made a game where you have to think a little more in how you divvy your stats. I haven't played long enough but from what I've read, the skills are more important than stats. Therefore, a rogue will always be better at missile and throwing than a fighter. I like it, I just wish ranged attacks required accuracy as well as melee attacks.

[maethlin]

As the thread starter and one who thinks this isn't particularly intuitive, I also have to agree w/the dev's (and other people's) assertions that it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be. Yes, it would be nice if it was more clearly stated up front (though even the flavor text already mentions that dex only affects melee to-hit), but I disagree that it's game-breaking.

It seems (as devs and others have stated) that weapon type and skill matters a LOT more than stats when it comes to damage dealing. A few people *coughsaxicough* are freaking out claiming the game is ruined, the class is ruined, etc. This is simply not true and a complete over-reaction. Seriously if it's that game ruining for you don't let the door hit you on the way out etc. etc. If you're going to obsess over this either restart and put a few points into str or just play something else altogether.

This is not at all game breaking and to say so is simple dramatics.

[Saxi]

True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

Why is a dagger rogue completely useless? I've only used a bow rogue so far (and even with un-optimal stats he definitely isn't useless).

I'll take your word for it because I haven't tried it yet, but just theory-crafting I can see dex at least being somewhat useful for a dagger rogue.

#1 there is no duel wield
#2 dex does not improve dagger skills/dmg
#3 evade doesn't seem to do much of anything

Sure you can max out dex and hit a lot, but do very little dmg and take a ton since evade doesn't do much.

[Saxi]

As the thread starter and one who thinks this isn't particularly intuitive, I also have to agree w/the dev's (and other people's) assertions that it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be. Yes, it would be nice if it was more clearly stated up front (though even the flavor text already mentions that dex only affects melee to-hit), but I disagree that it's game-breaking.

It seems (as devs and others have stated) that weapon type and skill matters a LOT more than stats when it comes to damage dealing. A few people *coughsaxicough* are freaking out claiming the game is ruined, the class is ruined, etc. This is simply not true and a complete over-reaction. Seriously if it's that game ruining for you don't let the door hit you on the way out etc. etc. If you're going to obsess over this either restart and put a few points into str or just play something else altogether.

This is not at all game breaking and to say so is simple dramatics.

Never said it was ruined, just said it was borked.

[Renevent]

True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

Why is a dagger rogue completely useless? I've only used a bow rogue so far (and even with un-optimal stats he definitely isn't useless).

I'll take your word for it because I haven't tried it yet, but just theory-crafting I can see dex at least being somewhat useful for a dagger rogue.

#1 there is no duel wield
#2 dex does not improve dagger skills/dmg
#3 evade doesn't seem to do much of anything

Sure you can max out dex and hit a lot, but do very little dmg and take a ton since evade doesn't do much.

Dex does improve accuracy, so it's not totally useless. Regarding evade I'm hearing conflicting reports on that...and maybe it's just perception, but it does seem my rogue get's hit less than my warrior does in the front line.

It's not ideal to just pump DEX only though like in other games, and so a dagger rogue requires his attributes spread a bit. Does that make him useless? I don't think so.

Anyways have a dagger rogue that can chime in?

[Arch0n]

True but dex should improve a rogues fighting skills and evade should actually do something. That is the whole dynamic of a rogue, making them pump strength and ignore dex defeats the purpose of the rogue class. It is made worse by the lack of duel wield that puts a nail in the coffin making rogue melee pointless.

I've read all your posts. It sounds like you want to play a different game.

You keep saying how "pointless" rogues are because the mechanics aren't conforming to your preconceived notions, you want dual wield, you want the code rewritten to respect "RPG 101" (whatever that is)... none of that is going to happen. In fact, Dex rogues are far from pointless in any respect, despite your desire to min/max.

Might I suggest another game, or swapping out your rogue for a mage.