Healing crystal discussion

[Drakkan]

Hi folks,

I´d like to hear some opinion in general on Healing crystal object (yeah the big blue one).I understand it makes game much easier for many players, but it also giving some feeling like: hey I cannot die, I will just backtrack to crystal... so many players just rage into any combat, not using any strategy or doesn't care about some retreat etc...
I understand the big blue one is part of grimrock design, but that does not mean it need to be part of any custom dungeon. And when I see comments like: hey you did not place enough crystals around...it is really mistake of the creator that player is dying by his/her own fault and need to backtrack a long way back ?
I think you get the main point.

I am also asking because I am planning some limitation on crystal use as well... so... Welcome any comments

[Dr.Disaster]

It should be made clear what "did not place enough crystals" stands for.

The LoG2 campaign features 34 levels and 20 crystals. Depending on difficulty selection this can be "plenty" (regular Easy or Normal) to "ok" (Ironman or Hard) and even "scarce" (Hard + one-use-cystals + Ironman). After completing the campaign several times now i'd say that one crystal each two maps is ok, even three depending on the map layout.

Of course this has to do with balancing in general. I only completed "Tomb of Sorez 2" and "Princes of Pale Moon" custom mods yet and they were fine in that regard; both are balanced for a new party. Also gave the first five levels of "Lost Dwarf Kingdom" a look today and i got the impression this mod is not ment for a new party; it offers few but rather strong gear and monsters pretty early.

[Drakkan]

It should be made clear what "did not place enough crystals" stands for.
After completing the campaign several times now i'd say that one crystal each two maps is ok, even three depending on the map layout.

I think this is my main concern - If I make dungeon where for example will be only one crystal at the beginning (and dungeon will have lets say 3 floors). it is bad approach ? I can balance it for example with providing party crystal shards or resurrection potion. So it is all just matter of balance or crystal are just REQUIRED ?
I think players are taking crystals like something, which needs to be part of the dungeon and are quite get used to it...

[THOM]

Therefore players have always the possibility to choose the ironman-and-so-on-options, it is not advisable to leave out all crystals. Or you have to make absolutely clear, that there is no possibility to play a mod with this options enabled.

I am constructing a Mod by myself and I realized, that you have to have this in mind nowadays during concepting.

[Diarmuid]

I think it can help with the balancing part of your dungeon: if you find the monster encounters too hard, you can either put more crystals or tune down the monster stats. The opposite is also true, too esay dungeon? Putting less crystals might be a way to generaly change balance without tweaking all mosnter stats.

However, it's also a question of how the mod is designed. I don't think that it should automatically support all possible grimrock mods, or even fit within the "grimrock" way of playing the game - a mod can totally be it's own experience. If you want to create a dungeon without crystals because you want the party to rely on sleep/potions only, sure, just it needs to be stated clearly in the mod description.

Also, just a tought, it should be doable by script to negate the "healing" part of the crystals while keeping the saving one.

[Isaac]

My first run through LoG2 [and so far my only run] was with ironman + single use crystals, and it was a radically changed [for the better] experience than what I was used to.

SpoilerShow

Even so, I reached Trixter's Lair; (haven't won against the wizard yet).

LoG2 could be played without crystals at all ~if you have an alchemist; and/or enough resources on the land to find or make potions.

[Anurias]

The game 'can' be played without crystals and without potions since you have the option of sleeping to recover health and energy and it is possible to get through the game without any characters dying. However, it amounts to how hard you want things to be. The crystals and potions don't make the game possible, they make the game more forgiving. You don't have to worry about making mistakes as much when you can recover easier from those mistakes with potions or crystals. No matter how many of either you put into the game though, you will always have some people who think you are balancing things too easy or too hard. All you can really do is consider the type of challenge you want to expose your players to. How punishing do you want your game or mod to be. Regardless of how hard or easy you make it, there will be people out there that like it that way, so pick your demographic and balance it for that.

[Azel]

Healing Crystals are sexy gorgeous when active, and therefore should be implemented and used as often as possible

[Isaac]

The crystals and potions don't make the game possible, they make the game more forgiving.

If you don't have either... then petrification becomes a serious problem. If a party member gets crippled ~then petrified, the entire party can potentially become permanently immobile. Even without that, the party could permanently lose members over the course of the game... potentially meaning that the player could face boss fights with as little as one "surviving" character.

[minmay]

Unless your player has both Ironman and single-use crystals enabled, they can, effectively, "savescum" almost without limit*. So healing crystals for most LoG2 players and all LoG1 mods are largely a convenience feature rather than a necessity.

I understand it makes game much easier for many players, but it also giving some feeling like: hey I cannot die, I will just backtrack to crystal... so many players just rage into any combat, not using any strategy or doesn't care about some retreat etc...

Dead or petrified characters don't gain XP, so there is a permanent penalty if you kill a monster or find a treasure while a character is dead. So this behaviour isn't something I experience at all.

And when I see comments like: hey you did not place enough crystals around...it is really mistake of the creator that player is dying by his/her own fault and need to backtrack a long way back ?

If most people aren't finding a mod fun, then yes, it's definitely the creator's fault! I don't know which specific mods you're thinking of, but if a mod is frustrating players and making them feel like they're wasting their time (backtracking a long way) it's very much the fault of the creator.

For my LoG1 mod I worried about departing too heavily from the original gameplay for how short it was, and ended up compromising the design in many respects (well, also because of time constraints). So I placed healing crystals and many monsters "normally", but compromised by adding the fast-travel/recharging gem. You see something closer to the full design in the 8 boss fights, where the party is locked into each one, and healed after completing each one. Since this mod was "optimized" to have minimal save/load times, and additionally gave dead characters full XP (making it no longer optimal to reload on most deaths, just go to a crystal), it was still pretty convenient imo.

For my LoG2 mods I have implemented the full combat structure: all fights lock you in, dying sends you back in time to before the fight (instead of giving a game over), and you start all fights at full health/energy. The latter two points imitate the behaviour you would get from ironman multi-use crystals, but without all the extra time spent saving, loading, and backtracking. It is additionally trivial to reset combat when the player reloads the game, so that they can't savescum with mid-combat saves, but I don't think I'm going to add that feature even as an option; if you want to save mid-combat, I might as well let you. The mod still keeps track of your deaths for curiosity/bragging purposes (though you can manipulate this with save/load anyway**), and there are still healing crystals scattered around so that you can comfortably play on ironman. It would, of course, be trivial to give the mod its own ironman/single-use-crystal mode, but I don't plan on doing so; repeating a fight that you've already beaten is not generally interesting.

If you don't have either... then petrification becomes a serious problem. If a party member gets crippled ~then petrified, the entire party can potentially become permanently immobile.

You can still move items out of dead/petrified characters' inventories, can you not? Though a foot injury could certainly make the party permanently slow.

*if ironman but not single-use crystals, then it is predicated on their ability to get back to a crystal - but in the main campaign, periods where you can't get to a crystal are very short.
**It's possible for me to force players to quit upon saving, like roguelikes do, so that they can't manipulate the statistics without using the console or editing the save, but really, who gives a crap.