Theorycrafted Optimized Party - No Swords or Mages :O

[minmay]

What is the attack delay on unarmed, and what does the 50 point skill do?

Cooldown on unarmed attacks is extremely close to that of a dagger (not sure if it's exactly the same). So damage is much higher than you will get from maces or axes, very close to that of daggers and pre-50-skill swords. Three Point Technique is just a special attack, the damage multiplier seems to be about the same as rampage; it's not really important.

Trip Report: Floor 6 Clear

I'm not even going to go into stat details.

• I walk up to Uggardians and kill them in one cycle of attacks now that both Missile Rogues have Volley.
• My resists / raw HP are such that I just walked down the fireball hallway on Floor 6 and didn't care about getting hit.
• My Mace user has smashed something for 150 dmg in one hit already and I'm just using the Warhammer still.
• I beat the Fighter Challenge without anyone dying, using only 2 potions (2nd attempt, first attempt I won with a few party members dead)

/me drops mic

bro all these things happen with pretty much any party

[sapientCrow]

I would also put unarmed in that optimized party.
2 break points are amazing and often you are getting +2 to stats rather than just 1.
1 break point in unarmed gives +5 str and dex. another break point is 20 evasion.
I have done both ways with a rogue where I maxxed unarmed and then I mixed both unarmed and dodge
Unarmed until evasion 20 then dodge until improved stealth (x2 on evade for clothes) then back to maxxing unarmed. With Bracelet of tirin I can often stun lock anything I have to face tank as well.
The issue with unarmed unfortunately is it does lack against heavily damage resistant foes. Still with its evasion bonus and the highest dex bonus of any weapon line it is quite good.
I have seen three point technique hit for 300+ as well. It procs enough as well...

[Lohengramm]

I would also put unarmed in that optimized party.
2 break points are amazing and often you are getting +2 to stats rather than just 1.
1 break point in unarmed gives +5 str and dex. another break point is 20 evasion.
I have done both ways with a rogue where I maxxed unarmed and then I mixed both unarmed and dodge
Unarmed until evasion 20 then dodge until improved stealth (x2 on evade for clothes) then back to maxxing unarmed. With Bracelet of tirin I can often stun lock anything I have to face tank as well.
The issue with unarmed unfortunately is it does lack against heavily damage resistant foes. Still with its evasion bonus and the highest dex bonus of any weapon line it is quite good.
I have seen three point technique hit for 300+ as well. It procs enough as well...

While I'm glad to hear Unarmed is a viable strategy, I think I still prefer Maces because Vitality is still a better defensive stat than Evasion. I'm going to get +20-25% to two different resists on top of the massive HP gains, and Evasion is still only good vs. enemies you let melee you. I don't really miss things any more, so Dex for Accuracy has become moot at this point. The +5 Dex at one breakpoint is sexy as hell, though, and if I felt Dex was better than Vit I'd become a true believer in Unarmed.

The bracer you mentioned is actually most effecient when used on the slowest member of your party (20% off 4 seconds is a bigger gain than off 3 seconds), so it is great on my Mace user I think. In contrast, I put the +20% delay +20% power bracer on my Dagger user because front loading damage and getting bigger crits / better triple slash specials trumps attacking faster.

[minmay]

The bracer you mentioned is actually most effecient when used on the slowest member of your party (20% off 4 seconds is a bigger gain than off 3 seconds)

no it isn't
15% faster cooldown is 15% more damage regardless of the original cooldown

[Lohengramm]

The bracer you mentioned is actually most effecient when used on the slowest member of your party (20% off 4 seconds is a bigger gain than off 3 seconds)

no it isn't
15% faster cooldown is 15% more damage regardless of the original cooldown

You're thinking of a game where you can always press the button the moment it comes on cooldown or where it automatically attacks for you. Having a Dagger cooldown while you're clicking on something else or out of range is not a dps gain.

[sapientCrow]

I myself mainly rely on Tirin Bracelet when I am forced to face tank like the fighter's challenge. This way a dagger wielder or a unarmed fighter/rogue can almost always be off cd to hit.

This I do mainly because I play a lot of mods and there numerous ones that have me forced face tanking things very early on in the game.
I have not played the original campaign in years so I totally forget what is the best course for that.
I just know unarmed has served me well as a very common spec. Also dex covers as far as I have experienced the most needed resists (shock and fire)
Most modders still prioritize fire and shock as the main traps it seems.
I wish LoG2 stayed with the same system of dex for 2 resists and vitality for the other 2. (off topic I know)

[Lohengramm]

I wish LoG2 stayed with the same system of dex for 2 resists and vitality for the other 2. (off topic I know)

Well, I'm kind of glad they didn't because in LoG 1 Dex and Vit are the only stats that matter, and with how resists work it compounds the problem by rewarding you more for stacking them more on top of already being the best stats.

[Lohengramm]

Game Won

So, final things to note: the end game Mace OWNS, it has a chance to freeze on hit which basically means game over for whatever you froze, up to and including the iron golems at the very end. I would still miss sometimes even with my bonkers Accuracy rating from stacking all that Dex, but so would my Dagger user so I think there just isn't a way to get 100% accuracy with any melee weapon.

In my build you can't really wear armor even if you try. The Valor set is so heavy you literally can't wear it all on your Fighter if you build like I did. Speaking of armor, even with 2 skill books on my Fighter I was unable to get to 16 Armor skill before ending the game. So, yeah. To wear Light Armor on rogues takes 17 Evasion so none of them came close either. Everyone was 1-2 levels off at best. This is, I suppose, the final nail in Strength's coffin. The one time you'd actually need it for the weight, you still can't actually get enough skill points to make use of the heavy armor, even with tomes. If you want to waste your life grinding blue lizards to get more levels be my guest, but it obviously isn't necessary to finish the game. I wore nothing that needed Light or Heavy proficiency all game long and won easily.

Having to manage torches was annoying and I think it might almost be worth bringing a Mage along just so you don't have to carry torches any more. Just make sure you go Lightning since there doesn't seem to be more than 4-5 monsters total in the game that might resist it (Wyverns I'm assuming, couldn't test obviously), and as a bonus, Lightning boosts Dex so you'll get some Evasion and resists out of the deal. You fight so many Uggardians in the last half of the game though that it would make being a Fire user a huge pain in the ass imo. Sure you can cast the Fire Resist spell to protect your party, but you can also just step to the side and not get hit in the first place in the majority of encounters.

My regular bow user was not really that impressive even with 50 points, monsters just had so much armor in the very end, and if they didn't have high armor then they usually also didn't have much HP and my other characters could handle it without the regular bow user easily. Having said that, the Crossbow user had about 4~ higher attack power end game, and by getting a Crossbow on floor 4 they basically dominated all game long. I would definitely use that floor 4 Crossbow in every party from now on. Concerning ammo, I ended up with around 24~ bolts and 27~ broadhead arrows, so that was not a concern for either weapon.

Overall my Mace Fighter and Dagger Rogue did amazing work and rarely missed for most of the game. I don't think there is really any reason to shit on Maces at all, given their Skill line buffs the shit out of your health and resists, they do tons of damage per hit vs. all enemies, and the final Mace has an awesome secondary effect that trivializes everything. I did not see it proc vs. the final boss, but oh well. It -might- still be possible and I just didn't get it to happen? Does Ice magic freeze the boss or those iron golems?

Regarding Unarmed: I could see the argument for this skill as well, due to the amazing stat boosts it offers if nothing else. If I had gone Unarmed Fighter in my front line I would have been able to wear all the armor I found easily (had I only the skill points to make it worth wearing), though I'd probably have to give up valor gloves for punching gloves. The down side to Unarmed? No freezing things, enemy armor would be tough to deal with for my group without a Mace ignoring it, and Unarmed offers no Vitality boosts, leaving you very vulnerable to bad luck deaths when its +35 (or more?) Evasion doesn't work. In my particular party I would probably not pair Unarmed with Daggers, and the Rogue didn't need more Strength wear Chitin (just couldn't get enough skill points), so there wouldn't be a huge point in giving up Daggers for Unarmed for them either.

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Conclusion: my party had so many HP and such good resists that I basically shrugged off most elemental damage when it hit me from traps or whatever. Evasion being what it is, I could still lose guys to bad luck streaks or not being fast enough on my feet when an Ogre would hit us while turning towards us, but these instances were very rare. Also, this being my first time through the entire dungeon there is no way in hell I could be the best player in general. More experienced players using my party would have probably had an even easier time than I did.

My final comment on LoG 1 is that I don't think being so limited on skill points is very fun, and I'm glad to see LoG 2's system allowing for so much more flexibility in character builds. I'm going to go try LoG 1 Master Quest next just to see what modders have been up to with this

[sapientCrow]

My final comment on LoG 1 is that I don't think being so limited on skill points is very fun, and I'm glad to see LoG 2's system allowing for so much more flexibility in character builds. I'm going to go try LoG 1 Master Quest next just to see what modders have been up to with this

My opinion is that LoG2 skill system is far inferior to LoG1. There is simply not enough break points and bonuses. It is the only thing I dislike about the new LoG. The initial intention was a skill tree which they seemed to have gotten rid of. They did in fact offer an entry into variety with the mixing of skills to use certain weapon types but with 1 skill point per level there is not enough to feel progression. Where as even though LoG1 has 4 points and you hit the roof and can not max out your skills (in the Vanilla campaign) you still get break points which add stats and other bonuses. LoG2 is over the top minimal. Of course that is my opinion.

As for Mods. There are so many brilliant mods out there it is simply amazing. I have played close to 50 now. Minmay who posted in this thread has one which is really awesome the puzzles and unique design. There are also some that are like 5x the size or more of the original campaign. In those you end up maxxing almost everything by end game.
I think the Modding community is absolutely amazing here and I have had an amazing time playing so many mods. Each with its own spark of innovation and genius.
Master Quest is very cool.

[Dr.Disaster]

True the Icefall Hammer's freeze ability eases things a lot - as long as the monsters are not cold immune like the Ice Lizards or the Cube.

Seems you missed the Crookhorn bow which is dps-wise on par with the Crossbow. These two form a pretty solid back row. Nevertheless both remain second behind a throwing head-hunting Minotaur Rogue in the front. He is the undisputed ranged weapon top-gun in both LoG's

A quick word on Master Quest: this mod is special when it comes to importing characters. Usually combat-heavy mod's can be trumped by importing a high level party but not MQ. Here all monsters are adjusted on game start to be a match for the hero's so beware! On the other hand the reward system is also adjusted so a higher level party can find more stuff then a low level one.