Food and Puzzles don't mix

[Dr.Disaster]

Right on, couldn't have said it better myself. Dr. Disaster and alot of other people love to jump on peoples back about whatever anyone might disagree upon, it's ridiculous and unneccessary to say the least. Let people have their opinion.

This is a forum which means people are welcome to post their opinions. Yet they need to be aware that this IS a forum where other people can and will reply with their opinion.

The second people comment something negative about the game you'll instantly get flamed and get accused of being rude for "wanting the developers to change the game". I've seen so many posts like that. "You have no right to tell the devs to change the game" Like what the hell? You have a right to state your opinion, end of story.

Pardon? Trying to show people where they might err or miss background information/intend/mechanic is not flaming them. Try to find a flame in my first replies to Azel on page one of this thread. The first flames were started by Azel himself after i told him that the Herder's Den remains a food source after the boss fight like other areas with food-providing monsters.

Indeed there are a number of threads where people want something different because they are used to it from other games/genres, in times going against what the developers had envisioned. People coming from the dungeon crawler genre have a quite clear vision what they expect from their games.

I don't really see the use of having food in the game to be honest, as most RPG's, including tile based ones like this one, don't have it.

Prolly because they are classic RPG's and not dungeon crawlers?
Survival elements like "food" are present in almost all classic crawlers and since LoG is based on this foundation we also have it. In LoG it's use is clear: food provides health and energy regeneration. Running out of food means no more regeneration and halved attack damage.

[Azel]

Yet they need to be aware that this IS a forum where other people can and will reply with their opinion.

You reply with spam and harassment, and as Rithrin describes, "Dr. Disaster tackles disagreements by being deliberately obtuse and willfully ignorant of his opponent's ideas, preferring to simply trash talk and be 'clever' by misrepresentation" - which means you're the one not realizing that this is a place for shared opinions.

So while this IS a forum where other people can and will reply with their opinion, what you do on this forum is reply with total garbage. And when that fails, you start asking for the Forum Administrators to censor the person you're desperately and pathetically trying to silence (as noted by your hilarious quote in my signature).

The fact is you are terrible at intellectual debate and even worse at being witty or entertaining in a forum war you start. And yes, you're the first one to turn what I began as a friendly discussion in to a forum war when you resorted to...

Pretty clear case of hyperactivity disorder, perhaps even ADHD. With hands and feet trying to do your brains work it's no wonder your always distracted (attention deficit) with the need to grab more food.

Use your brain, it saves your party a ton of food. Just try it. A 100% healthy and feed party standing still for whatever length of time will use no food at all; their food bars won't move a single pixel.

Nowhere had I attacked you prior to you making that lame attempt at a "flame", but I certainly have been cutting through your dignity ever since. I have enjoyed watching your creative juices run out after a few short sentences

minmway was the first to call you out for being a child:

Wow. Is it really necessary to insult about 4% of the world's population, plus the entire field of psychology, just so you can make an ad hominem attack against someone who disagrees with you about a video game?

minmay, Rithrin, and now Jkiller have openly acknowledged your mediocre attempts at trying to harass people who say something about a video game you don't like. And each time you try to defend it by acting as though your mindless forum troll antics are perfectly normal

If anyone has been paying attention to the activity on these forums there is a constant trend where a new gamer comes in and posts a contribution, and Dr. Disaster engages in "web abuse" to drive them off. Most times it works where people leave and never return, which I find to be very sad since this community deserves an IQ that matches the the greatness of the game. Right now a handful of childish forum troll idiots like Dr. Disaster are using their ignorance and ability to sacrifice their self-worth for the sake of high post counts to keep quality discussion from occurring. I may be on the opposite end of that extreme, but I will gladly speak out to make others feel welcome when harassed by these clowns.

Anyways,

I'm ready for Grimrock 3!! Or a major patch to Grimrock 2 that grants an epic expansion... or maybe allow me to import my Grimrock 1 team in to Grimrock 2? As far as food goes, I'd be happy if food consumption was an option - much like Iron Man Mode and other difficult settings are optional. Leave food in the game as a "checkbox" for the die-hard dungeon crawler fans; and let us RPG and Adventure fanatics uncheck it for our own experience. Seems like a fitting compromise for a hybrid game that attracts extremists on 3-fronts.

[Anurias]

Survival elements like "food" are present in almost all classic crawlers and since LoG is based on this foundation we also have it. In LoG it's use is clear: food provides health and energy regeneration. Running out of food means no more regeneration and halved attack damage.

It also adds to the inventory management of the game. You only have so many inventory spaces (far more than you need to be honest) and you can only carry so much weight. This presents a need for you to make decisions on if the food is more important than an extra bomb or something else. Some people coming from the pure RPG genre are used to picking up every little thing they stumble across since in most of those games you have an unlimited inventory with the exception of possibly stack limits, but even then you don't have to choose between having item A or item B in your inventory.

As far as food goes, I'd be happy if food consumption was an option - much like Iron Man Mode and other difficult settings are optional. Leave food in the game as a "checkbox" for the die-hard dungeon crawler fans; and let us RPG and Adventure fanatics uncheck it for our own experience. Seems like a fitting compromise for a hybrid game that attracts extremists on 3-fronts.

I'll give you that the checkbox idea would be a good compromise, but I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea as food was built into the game's core mechanics, not just as a way to penalize someone that doesn't go hunting for food, but also as a way force players to make decisions on what to take with them when they can only carry so much. Turning off food means that you would no longer have to carry any food around, so you could instead carry around more ammunition for your bow or sling, carry more bombs or healing and energy potions, more ingredients, special charge weapons that you might not want to have equipped all the time but want to carry them around for their charge ability... All these decisions become less of an issue when you no longer have to carry around a crate full of food because you don't know if there will be a food source on the map you're exploring.

At the same time, some of the checkbox options do change the difficulty of the game in a similar degree which is the only real reason I'll give that it would be a good compromise. However, I still feel that anyone turning off food would be missing out on an important aspect of the game as it was designed to be played.

[Dr.Disaster]

Yet they need to be aware that this IS a forum where other people can and will reply with their opinion.

You reply with spam and harassment, and as Rithrin describes, "Dr. Disaster tackles disagreements by being deliberately obtuse and willfully ignorant of his opponent's ideas, preferring to simply trash talk and be 'clever' by misrepresentation" - which means you're the one not realizing that this is a place for shared opinions.

"Shared" is the keyword here. Anyone can either agree or disagree to anything.

Up to now you made it clear that you are happy when others agree with you BUT! if they don't you take offense immediatly and are very quick in resorting to insults and name calling. This happens to anyone talking with you all over this forum.

So while this IS a forum where other people can and will reply with their opinion, what you do on this forum is reply with total garbage.

Well that's your opinion but this leads us to an inevitable question: why do you reply to something you think is total garbage?

And when that fails, you start asking for the Forum Administrators to censor the person you're desperately and pathetically trying to silence (as noted by your hilarious quote in my signature).

In case you recall i did not quote anything in that post of mine, only refered to your "last posts" on that same page. They show who's brainchild you are. Depending on moderator mood and forum etiquette some/all of this could get you in real trouble but that's not my choice to make.

The fact is you are terrible at intellectual debate and even worse at being witty or entertaining in a forum war you start.

I repeat a statement made earlier: there is no debate. No intellect required to see that. It's just annoyed Azel who keeps writing lengthy posts rivaling a spambot's output to convince others why his opinion is right after he failed to adapt to a game mechanic in one specific situation which he had no problem with for the rest of the game.

And yes, you're the first one to turn what I began as a friendly discussion in to a forum war when you resorted to...

Pretty clear case of hyperactivity disorder, perhaps even ADHD. With hands and feet trying to do your brains work it's no wonder your always distracted (attention deficit) with the need to grab more food.

Use your brain, it saves your party a ton of food. Just try it. A 100% healthy and feed party standing still for whatever length of time will use no food at all; their food bars won't move a single pixel.

Nowhere had I attacked you prior to you making that lame attempt at a "flame", ..

Are you that thin-skinned that you take this little encouragement towards "more brainwork" as a "flame"?

.. but I certainly have been cutting through your dignity ever since. I have enjoyed watching your creative juices run out after a few short sentences

Remember
Please keep up your 10yo-flame-war-mode! I love a good laugh

[Azel]

I'll give you that the checkbox idea would be a good compromise, but I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea as food was built into the game's core mechanics, not just as a way to penalize someone that doesn't go hunting for food, but also as a way force players to make decisions on what to take with them when they can only carry so much. Turning off food means that you would no longer have to carry any food around, so you could instead carry around more ammunition for your bow or sling, carry more bombs or healing and energy potions, more ingredients, special charge weapons that you might not want to have equipped all the time but want to carry them around for their charge ability... All these decisions become less of an issue when you no longer have to carry around a crate full of food because you don't know if there will be a food source on the map you're exploring.

At the same time, some of the checkbox options do change the difficulty of the game in a similar degree which is the only real reason I'll give that it would be a good compromise. However, I still feel that anyone turning off food would be missing out on an important aspect of the game as it was designed to be played.

Well first of all, I'm glad we are finally able to have a good conversation together. Second, I do owe you an apology. When I went back and reviewed the fun in this thread I realize that you never actually insulted me; all you did was accuse me of "overthinking" - which felt like a judgement and attempt to derail the topic via red herring.

Normally that should never warrant a hostile response, but unfortunately it came during the peak moments where Dr. Disaster was hot for having someone use him as toilet paper; thus the wax-on/wax-off wiping frenzy practically treated friend as foe and spilled over on to you. That's no excuse but I do apologize for my poor behavior during our early exchanges.

Okay back on topic,

Yeah I can see where making food a Game Option might render it useless and possibly ostracize the dedicated dungeon crawler fans. I understand that with Grimrock 1, it is the true dungeon crawl gamers that had been waiting so long for something epic to finally redeem this forgotten genre, and they are the ones that openly supported the game. There's no doubt that the word-of-mouth promotion and rave reviews from these very fans lead to the near 1-million copies sold success. I am perfectly happy with the food element in Grimrock 1, and like I mentioned early... for Grimrock 2 I created the Walking Dead Party centered around the strategy of walking and eating.

Fast forward and there I am one evening, traveling through the Twig Tunnels in the same way shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIIs7B0tlTk

I see the phrase, "Philosophers Stone," and I see a big boulder in a room with strange markings. Nothing really happens until I do what Anurias warns me about (do not fk'ing overthink); so I place something on the floor switch through the gate. I walk back in the room and O-M-F-G the room has transformed in to something never encountered in the original Grimrock. The room suddenly looked futuristic, and the sound effects were awesome. Right then I knew, "shit just to got real," and all RPG character building strategies went out the window: to hell with the crafting feature of Alchemists; to hell with how overpowered my Mino Barb is gonna be; to hell with planning for heavy weapon heaven via the Scythe; and to hell with strategizing all-you-can-eat buffets for my Ratling Farmer. I no longer cared about the RPG aspect of the game because I was immensely intrigued by the beauty of this room and its delivery of a puzzle.

Luckily Grimrock allows me to temporarily set aside the RPG aspect of the game in favor of focusing only on the puzzle intrigue. As I advanced deeper in to the game, the puzzles became harder, more complex, and more intriguing. And yes my overthinking increased as well but dont judge me. As the complexity increased, I then felt the desire to set aside another aspect of this game - the part that caused all the controversy in this thread: the food urgency that supports traditional dungeon crawlers.

But unlike my ability to temporarily ignore RPG elements like character building, I could not ignore dungeon crawler elements like food urgency. I know I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but the game is badass, I have no doubt there could be 10 more releases of Grimrock with each greater than its predecessor, and maybe I'm not the only one who had this silly yet colorful experience.

Cheers!

[Anurias]

I think it's pretty amazing that I apologized, then Azel apologized and now I think it looks like we can actually hold a civil conversation and see each other's sides of this. I don't think either of us will ever be changing sides of the debate though, but I think some level of respect for each other's point of view has been gained finally.

[Dr.Disaster]

..quotemania..

Are we cutting quotes to our liking again? Perhaps otherwise they would not be in our favor?

minmay's quote is a question; some might say it's rhetoric but nevertheless it's a question. Readers would expect an answer plus what the cause was for that question. Why skip on the original quote and answer? Afraid people might see things different then you?

What Rithrin really said:

I hate to defend Azel here, because I think he is wrong, but some of the forum members here like Dr. Disaster are so quick to jump on anyone who has a differing opinion with them and spew unwarranted abuse. Even though he's a normal, well-mannered person when it comes to mod threads, Dr. Disaster tackles disagreements by being deliberately obtuse and willfully ignorant of his opponent's ideas, preferring to simply trash talk and be "clever" by misrepresentation.

What JKiller really said: read my post to him respectively await his reply to my post.

Rithrin's and jKiller's quotes are very general. The best one can make out of them is that they question my style. Well can't please everyone. If they like to bring something up to me they think is trash talk i'm willing to look over it but that's their point to make not yours.


Anything left? Nah picked all i could from this bone.

[Azel]

Yes, Rithrin thinks I'm wrong about removing food from Grimrock, but thinks you as a person are obtuse and ignorant. You call that general? Well that's because you're obtuse and ignorant

Fun to read the excuses you say to yourself to help lessen how much you cry before going to sleep at night. Love it, I'm adding that to my sig later. haha

[Azel]

I think it's pretty amazing that I apologized, then Azel apologized and now I think it looks like we can actually hold a civil conversation and see each other's sides of this. I don't think either of us will ever be changing sides of the debate though, but I think some level of respect for each other's point of view has been gained finally.

I look forward to many disagreements. Keeps things fresh, interesting, and intellectual.

So what does a master puzzle solver like yourself use to beat Grimrock 2? In terms of the character class selection, what was your final build? I stuck to my Walking Dead Party (Mino Barb, Mino Alchemist, Lizard Alchemist, Rat Farmer).

[Rithrin]

As long as people are having civilized discourse here again, I guess I'll chime in.

I think adding the option to disable food could be a decent solution. It's admittedly too easy to think of something as "either this or that", but situations that allow for player options are generally best. If anyone has played the latest addition to the Thief series of games, you'll remember that they had a very customizable difficulty setting screen, allowing you to set option rules for yourself like "Game over if ever spotted", "Game over if lethal force is used", etc. Not all of them make for the most enjoyable playthroughs, as the game was still designed for a certain combination of settings, but allowed people who preferred different experiences to at least try them out.

So if the developers want to add a food check box, I'm all for it. I would just hope that they still designed and balanced the game around the system, since it's part of the core experience they are trying to provide.