Food and Puzzles don't mix

[Azel]

Go for that "victory via last word" just to round out your text book approach to Forum Warrior Fail


ps, thanks for the quote! I finally have a sig

[Thorham]

The food problem again, sigh. How food is a problem in a game with INFINITE food is completely beyond me.

[Azel]

Not really beyond you, it's described pretty well. And repeatedly. Unless reading is beyond you?

[Anurias]

Well no, I presented the different language because you stated that English is the only language rule that should be followed. I was correcting you and now you are argument dodging.

Again you warp what was said to fit in with how you wish to portray things and get it completely wrong. Reading comprehension is apparently something you never scored well on in tests in school. I was pointing out that EVERY time you read something in the game, it's presented from left to right, top to bottom. Not hard to realize that when presented with a note that just shows shapes from tetris that it's giving you the order of the shapes, you just have to figure out what to do with those shapes. That doesn't mean the clue is worthless or that I'm suddenly wrong because now there's trial and error. It means that you have a clue that will lead you to what you are supposed to do. If you swim around all the shapes, and nothing happens and you didn't see any buttons on them, but saw ladders on them all, then doesn't it make sense to think that what you need may be on top of them? Walking, or in this case, swimming around the room for 5 minutes or so is not excessive walking and isn't going to cost you the amount of hunger you've been complaining about.

Oh I did read your entire thoughts unfortunately, but doing so only makes things worse. You are only concerned with pretending that the puzzles are easy and the people are either "dumb" or "overthinking." Fairly worthless.

I'm not pretending that the puzzles are easy, I'm stating that I keep seeing people trying to add mechanics to the puzzles that simply aren't there, and aren't hinted at. They think that because it's a puzzle it has to be some complicated and convoluted solution, when in very nearly every case, it's completely the opposite. The best way to solve the puzzles is to think, 'What is the simplest way I could possibly meet the requirements of this clue?' Far more often than not that will be your solution. You think that is worthless advice? Fine, keep trying to make things more complicated than they have to be. I've already beaten the game and found everything, without having to resort to the spoilers you've already looked at because you didn't want your characters to go hungry, and I didn't spend hours upon hours wracking my brain on them either.

That is incorrect; you are argument dodging again. The initial clue's on the UHU NA paper do not give explicit instructions. It does not say "turn right" versus "walk right." It only gives the player enough information to eventually figure out Turn vs Move vs Rotation. Thus, "NA" is a CLUE that it means "2" ... the player has to figure out this means "move 2 places." So when the Rotations were left out, there were literally clues that were left out, which is why you ended up making excuses about the ease of process of elimination. Even if they had included the Rotation words on the mapping document, the player still doesn't know if that means "turn the camera" or "walk in an L shape" since the mapping graphic literally portrays both options.

You simply know the answer now and are speaking from hindsight. Everything on the UHU map is vague enough to leave at least 2 possible interpretations; you are pretending that the correct interpretation is apparent from the start. That's completely invalid, and worthless.

Again your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. The UHU note is a diagram representing the arrow movement keys and what would be unlabeled turning keys, something that should click with anyone that plays dungeon crawlers as that layout has been around in every dungeon crawler and also in many other games, especially games that are presented in a first person view. Consider if you will any and all games that use WASD for movement, in almost all cases of these games you have the Q and E keys turning you. So if you overlay that note for UHU on top of the keymap, you see that they correlate to the movements. Is it explicit? It's a CLUE not a SOLUTION, yes there is some problem solving involved, but again, you are expected to do something simple to solve the puzzle.

And again you claim that I am speaking from hindsight when I am referring to the processes I used to SOLVE the puzzles. That's not hindsight. Hindsight is when you look back on something that you struggled with after you finally have the solution and say something like 'doh, I should have seen that' and I will admit that a couple times I did run into that... and when I say a couple, I do mean twice that happened to me in the course of playing the game. Neither time involved UHU or the Tetris puzzle.

Wrong again. I actually address the dungeon crawl and RPG aspects of the game quite often; which means you are missing that fact, repeatedly. You're making excuses again, and you're ignoring the fact that Grimrock moved very heavily in to the realm of adventure games like Myst. You can put the Island maps up side-by-side and see great similarities.

Yes, a dungeon crawler does show some elements of RPG games as well as Puzzle Adventure games, but it is NEITHER of these genres and relies on a mixture of these genres to distinguish itself from both. You consistently are asking for the game to be more like Myst, which is a Puzzle Adventure game, not a Dungeon Crawler, and even farther from being an RPG. The motives behind your request to the developers are to take the game out of its current genre of games and put it into a genre that you like more.

I wasn't planning on coming to your house and robbing you so calm down, junior. You can keep your one-dimensional gaming life for as long as your heart desires. Besides, my request is to eliminate food to help enhance the already dominant presence of the adventure game genre in LoG 2. Taking away food won't rob the dungeon crawl experience at all - in my opinion, of course.

I never said anything about you coming to my house or robbing me, I accused you of attempting to incite a fundamental change in a core aspect of a game in a genre that has not had the attention it deserves in over a decade. Whereas the genre that you want to turn it into, Puzzle Adventure, gets new games every year. And I reiterate your own words here.

Besides, my request is to eliminate food to help enhance the already dominant presence of the adventure game genre in LoG 2.

You state very clearly here that you want to push the game more towards your ideal adventure game which in other areas you have made very clear that your basis of comparison for adventure games is the Myst series, which is a completely different genre of game.

Umm, no, I understood that point and since contending with thirst never ever happens in the official campaigns for LoG 1 nor LoG 2 it is an absolutely retarded thing to say. I could create a Mod and eliminate food entirely, does that mean I win the debate?

How many times did your party go thirsty in Grimrock 1? Zero.
How many times did your party go thirsty in Grimrock 2? Zero.

So why the hell are you and the mental infant, Dr. Disaster, talking about thirst?

Obviously you didn't understand as you claim... the requests for thirst were made BEFORE the games were released because it was an aspect of the game that people felt belonged in a dungeon crawling experience. The fact that it was not included is likely (I don't know this for certain but I feel it is a logical assumption) the devs' attempt to not have food and water needs detract too much from the parts of the game that you obviously enjoy so much. In other words, keeping food, but not including water was a compromise and you are now asking for the rest of what you want. How would you feel if someone were to say the lack of water needs detracted from the experience of the game and should be added in? It would also be asking for what was sacrificed in that compromise. While I personally might enjoy that feature being added I would indeed side on the same side as people opposing its addition into the game simply because I do see the exclusion as a fair compromise.

For one simple reason: chances are that the moment the puzzle is solved I will "once again" be attacked by a horde of zombies, rats, or mummies and I would like it very much if my Barbarian and Wizard could start kicking ass instead of worrying about weather they ate their lunch, drank some water, or took their damn daily multi-vitamins

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm understanding your reason to amount to 'You don't want to let them go hungry because you don't want to have to check their food status after solving the puzzle, but instead charge right back into the fray of battle.' Is that about right? If so, it sounds to me like you would be happier in a different genre of game.

Interesting, so you support censorship of ideas you don't agree with. You're not only daft, but a nazi. Good for you. I doubt that the dev's of Grimrock need infantile slugs like you and Dr. Disaster to "save" them from the big bad ugly poster that is making a suggestion for a change in their game. Despite your nazi lifestyle I am sure the dev's are free people and can make their own decisions. Besides, they are already granting part of my request by adding the Neck Chain which eliminates the need to constantly feed the group.

Here is where I'm starting to take offense and where it is blatantly obvious that you are just trying to incite petty name calling and insults. I didn't say anything in support of censorship of ideas, counter to that I said you are welcome to your opinions. What I was trying to get across is that while you may think something to be a bad idea, that does not mean that something needs to be changed. You obviously aren't considering the larger picture. You are turning a blind eye in favor of changing the game to a different genre. If I was interested in censoring your ideas I'd be calling for this thread to be stricken from the forum. That's censorship, and I have never asked for that. I asked that you not go blindly asking to change things without looking at the full ramifications of what you are asking for. Or do you really want to change the game from a dungeon crawler to a puzzle adventure game, taking away a series of games that breathed new life into a long dormant genre and possibly convincing other developers that the genre isn't just dormant but dead?

I also don't believe that the addition of that Neck Chain is granting part of your request, you only get 1 unless you cheat to make more, so it doesn't prevent you from having to feed your party. All it does is allow you to stretch your food reserves, it becomes a tool to aid in food and inventory management, but not remove it from the game.

Also, you just promoted Dr. Disasters scenario where "several people" wanted to see a change to Grimrock, by adding thirst as a factor. Which means you are in full support of "asking the devs to change something that was designed into the game as a core aspect" ... as long as you agree with it. If you dont, burn the witch!

First off, it was not a 'change' to Grimrock, it was a request for initial core features of the series. That is a very different thing than asking for a change to be made after the fact. Secondly, the devs made their choice, they included food, but left out water. If someone wants to add in water in a mod, they are well within their rights to do so, just like if someone wants to remove food in a mod they are also well within their rights to do so. They are mods, if you can make it happen in a mod and you want it, do it. That's the point of mods, to take the existing game engine and create your own game from it. If you want a puzzle adventure game using the Grimrock engine, go ahead and make one, just don't try to change the original game into a completely different game.

What I like about these exchanges is that it gives the dev's a chance to see what type of intellect gravitates towards different aspects of their game. The dev's could ignore the arguments entirely in this thread and just see that an experienced gamer that recognizes their talent would like to see food eliminated, and on the other side... a nazi and a retard want to keep it.

You guys are doing the work for me!

I agree that this allows the devs 'a chance to see what type of intellect gravitates towards different aspects of their game.' However, where we differ is in our perceptions of each other. You decide to resort to base name calling and general insults when you fail to understand what is presented to you. Which I feel the need to point out is very trollish behavior and causes me to believe that all you are after is an argument.

[Azel]

Again you warp what was said to fit in with how you wish to portray things and get it completely wrong. Reading comprehension is apparently something you never scored well on in tests in school. I was pointing out that EVERY time you read something in the game, it's presented from left to right, top to bottom. Not hard to realize that when presented with a note that just shows shapes from tetris that it's giving you the order of the shapes, you just have to figure out what to do with those shapes. That doesn't mean the clue is worthless or that I'm suddenly wrong because now there's trial and error. It means that you have a clue that will lead you to what you are supposed to do. If you swim around all the shapes, and nothing happens and you didn't see any buttons on them, but saw ladders on them all, then doesn't it make sense to think that what you need may be on top of them? Walking, or in this case, swimming around the room for 5 minutes or so is not excessive walking and isn't going to cost you the amount of hunger you've been complaining about.

My reading comprehension is fine, and my analysis about this puzzle and its clue can be matched by others posters and people playing it on YouTube. You can act like the solution is apparent "after" you know the answer, I'll just keep pointing out the obvious lie and watch you cry about it. In an earlier post you even insult the people making YouTube video's for over thinking. It's sad seeing someone like you let your need to be perceived "highly" on the Internet overshadow your ability to act logical and reasonable. Amusing too though.

I'm not pretending that the puzzles are easy, I'm stating that I keep seeing people trying to add mechanics to the puzzles that simply aren't there, and aren't hinted at.

So swimming and looking for hidden switches are mechanics that aren't there? There you go sounding stupid in your attempt to pretend you're smart enough to figure out puzzles the first time.

And if we pair that retarded comment of yours with the excuses you made above? You described how you can first swim around as test case 1, and then check for buttons as test case 2, until you try the final solution which is climb the ladders. But now you're saying that the person should have known to climb the ladders because swimming wasn't hinted at and looking for buttons wasn't hinted at. And apparently they aren't even mechanics in the game anymore.

But wait, climbing the ladders wasn't hinted at either. The ladders are NOT even drawn on the actual hint Map. The ladders exist, yes, but they could be there to allow the player to avoid drowning while they swim around the puzzle and looking for underwater secrets. That is very sensible, but again, you ignore that (as well as the existing game mechanics) and resort to pretending the solution to the puzzle is apparent the first time. Well, until I call you an idiot at which point you switch to, "no no the puzzles are not explicit they are just clues to problems you have to solve." as seen right... here...

Is it explicit? It's a CLUE not a SOLUTION, yes there is some problem solving involved, but again, you are expected to do something simple to solve the puzzle.

LOL whaaa?? But you said the answer is so obvious and anything else involves game mechanics that aren't even there; which means there would be no problem to solve. Duurrr??

And again you claim that I am speaking from hindsight when I am referring to the processes I used to SOLVE the puzzles.

Since nothing is explicit, one would have to believe that you looked at every clue once and figured out the exact solution the first time. Based on how terrible your thought process in this thread, there is no way in hell I would even believe you figured out these puzzles after 10 tries. You are clearly only speaking from hindsight.

Yes, a dungeon crawler does show some elements of RPG games as well as Puzzle Adventure games, but it is NEITHER of these genres and relies on a mixture of these genres to distinguish itself from both.

Well earlier you did say, "It's a Dungeon Crawler, and it was modeled after games like Dungeon Master from over a decade ago." You shift stances based on what part of the argument you desperately want to win. Yet you fail at both attempts.

I accused you of attempting to incite a fundamental change in a core aspect of a game

And you promoted a fundamental change in a core aspect of the game, thirst. So again, when it suits you the change is supported and when it doesn't suit you the tactic you resort to is idiotic censorship with accusations of being "robbed."

You state very clearly here that you want to push the game more towards your ideal adventure game which in other areas you have made very clear that your basis of comparison for adventure games is the Myst series, which is a completely different genre of game.

Removing Food from the game would not move Grimrock towards a true adventure game; making that argument is probably the dumbest thing posted on this forum since conception. Considering Dr. Disasters presence that is quite the amazing accomplishment! There are literally over 1,000 other features in the game that keep it within the dungeon crawl action RPG genre. I wouldn't expect you to realize that since at this point you have denied that swimming and buttons are mechanics in the game.

the requests for thirst were made BEFORE the games were released because it was an aspect of the game that people felt belonged in a dungeon crawling experience

And thirst was never ever introduced in to either LoG 1 nor LoG 2 which means I'm right and you're wrong. You still think you're making a point by saying something you wanted never happened; and it never happening is more about what I want. Hmmm?

it sounds to me like you would be happier in a different genre of game.

You mean like you and the rest who wanted thirst but didn't get it? Sounds like you belong in a pure dungeon crawler, not an action RPG adventure hybrid.

Remember, you did say, " It's a Dungeon Crawler, and it was modeled after games like Dungeon Master from over a decade ago." Sounds like you should go find what you are looking for instead of sacrificing both intellect and dignity on the Internet as you attempt to pigeonhole Grimrock in to a single genre. Have you tried Stonekeep? That would suit you better.

I didn't say anything in support of censorship of ideas

Sure you did, right here, "he should not be asking for the devs to change something." Pretty sad that your only options are to spam your idiocy or cry for censorship when you can't make a good argument.

Besides, you clearly cannot read since I never asked the dev's to change anything with the existing games; my request is for future releases of Grimrock. You know, kinda like the excuse you made about wanting thirst...

the requests for thirst were made BEFORE the games were released because it was an aspect of the game that people felt belonged in a dungeon crawling experience

So it's okay to make a request before LoG 1 was made, and then again before LoG 2 is made... but making a request before LoG 3 is made is bad? Right, and again we see that thought process of yours that somehow allowed you to solve puzzles quickly and easily

I also don't believe that the addition of that Neck Chain is granting part of your request, you only get 1 unless you cheat to make more, so it doesn't prevent you from having to feed your party.

At that point it is just simple math. In a future release of Grimrock the dev's could easily make 4 chains, or sure, I could use the Console to spawn more legit items. The dev's are definitely moving closer to my wishes than yours. After all, you said yourself that they did not give in to the desire to add thirst. Now they added more features that eliminate the impact of starvation. My wish just may come true soon enough.

If you want a puzzle adventure game using the Grimrock engine, go ahead and make one, just don't try to change the original game into a completely different game.

Removing food wouldn't make it in to a completely different game. Food is already becoming a non-factor, as even Dr. Disaster has unknowingly made the case for; you just don't really understand the game you supposedly played and beat so easily.

You decide to resort to base name calling and general insults

Only when dealing with a forum troll spammer like Dr. Disaster, or a censorship nazi like you. Seems like a fair trade. Exchanges with intellectuals can and do take place, (like my discussion with Rithrin), but you are too far down the food chain to warrant such a thing.

Well in other news, I look forward to creating my first Mod that yes, will highlight the adventure aspect of Grimrock (and remove that pesky Food).

[Anurias]

Don't bother replying to this Azel, because I'm done trying to get you to understand anything I'm saying because yet again, you have completely warped it with only reading half of sentences and ignoring the parts that you choose to ignore. There is no way to have a conversation with you.

[Dr.Disaster]

Removing Food from the game would not move Grimrock towards a true adventure game; making that argument is probably the dumbest thing posted on this forum since conception.

heh said by a guy who wants to make a foodless adventure game mod

[Azel]

A foodless dungeon crawler action RPG adventure game Mod. Or just, "adventure game Mod" for the mentally challenged

[Thorham]

Not really beyond you, it's described pretty well. And repeatedly. Unless reading is beyond you?

No, it's ridiculous. The game has infinite food. You take an extra bag of food with you. Still run out? Go back and get some more. How hard is that? My first play through took around 33 hours, and I ended up with two chests of unused heavy weight food, without much farming at all. Means you are doing it wrong. Don't blame the game for something that you aren't doing right.

[Azel]

No, it's ridiculous. The game has infinite food. You take an extra bag of food with you. Still run out? Go back and get some more. How hard is that? My first play through took around 33 hours, and I ended up with two chests of unused heavy weight food, without much farming at all. Means you are doing it wrong. Don't blame the game for something that you aren't doing right.

The issue is not that I am running out of food. Learn to read.