Grimrock 2 impossible for some?

[Azel]

You brought up Mc Donald's, not me. I guess it was a red herring after all; as opposed to analogy you introduced to prove something. I agree that it's pointless to use Mc Donald's as an analogy, no idea why you did that in the first place. Now that you've abandoned your own analogy we are left with your original point, which is your claim that companies like Bethesda are bad at making good games even though they make good money making games. A subjective opinion trying to be passed off as a fact. Still wrong.

Quake, Doom, Elder Scrolls, Fallout... all great games. You say they are just "Yes man" games made to appeal to a player ego, I say that you are one bitter nerd rager if you really feel that way. Seems like your own ego is blinding you to the greatness of Bethesda titles. Ironic.

[Rithrin]

While I'm not a huge fan of some of the recent Elder Scrolls games, how would one distinguish between Skyrim and Grimrock 2 in the area of 'ego stroking'?

In Skyrim, you are the dragonborn! Look how you change from prisoner-refugee into a powerful dragon-shouting warrior mage!

In Grimrock 2, you become the Keeper! Look how you change from prisoners into the powerful Island Master, keeper of the spell that holds the universe together!

In both games, you start as some unskilled, poor sod that was taken into custody for (alleged) crimes. Through some trick of fate or destiny, you rise rapidly in power, overcoming all obstacles in your way, and achieve unparalleled power. If you are trying to dismiss Skyrim as an 'ego stroking' game, you must also dismiss Grimrock 2. That, or realize that both can be good, quality products that simply feature different game mechanics.

-----

As for food,

Having to keep up with feeding your party members to avoid the effects of starvation, might be old school...but it sure as Hell is not fun, and I think that this should be left out of the series

What's the problem with food? It's so easy to end up with chests full of food, and you wont even use half of it.?

That is exactly the problem with food. There's infinite food in the game, so you never run out of food, so the mechanic is meaningless; it's just pointless busywork.

Having to keep up with feeding your party members to avoid the effects of starvation, might be old school...but it sure as Hell is not fun, and I think that this should be left out of the series

How could it ever be mistakenly thought that the starvation mechanics were meant to be fun? They are supposed to be required; I wouldn't have ever thought that anyone could assume they were supposed to be fun. [That's broadly in general... not meant specifically.]

Starving characters stop regenerating energy and health; making their abilities restrained ~that's the point; it's a hardship one must overcome in order to progress in the game.

The point is not whether something is fun or a hardship to overcome, it's whether the inclusion of the mechanic makes the game interesting. (Please keep in mind that I feel Grimrock's food system is fine). As a game designer, you shouldn't actively seek to add "unfun" mechanics into a game, nor should you seek to entirely add "fun" mechanics. Fun is subjective... you make your game interesting and people who have fun with your mechanics will play it. Having to balance time spent in a dungeon against the available food reserves is an interesting mechanic, because it allows for situations where you may need to divert your party to go hunting for food, risking having respawns when you return.

Imagine for a moment, that the developers put four small buttons next to the character portraits with the image of a lung on them. They're labeled "Breathe" and, if you don't click it once every 8 seconds for each character, your party members will fall unconscious or die and must be revived at a crystal. Would you enjoy that addition? Probably not. Although it is an annoyance and must be overcome to progress in the game, it isn't interesting and doesn't further the game. On the other hand, there's a game called SCP Containment Breach which, while I'd not say it's a fantastic game overall, has a mechanic where your character has to blink every now and then. It wouldn't work in Grimrock 2, but it works in that game because there are lots of monsters that react or only move when your character isn't looking at them.

[Isaac]

As a game designer, you shouldn't actively seek to add "unfun" mechanics into a game, nor should you seek to entirely add "fun" mechanics.

This is a point not often understood.

Imagine for a moment, that the developers put four small buttons next to the character portraits with the image of a lung on them.

But this is a bit [too] hyperbolic, and overshadows the valid point.

But notice that both food and air are easy when you have them, and not so when they are not around. Notice that Grimrock 2 does indeed make air a scarcity in certain parts of the game.

You brought up Mc Donald's, not me. I guess it was a red herring after all; as opposed to analogy you introduced to prove something. I agree that it's pointless to use Mc Donald's as an analogy, no idea why you did that in the first place. Now that you've abandoned your own analogy we are left with your original point, which is your claim that companies like Bethesda are bad at making good games even though they make good money making games. A subjective opinion trying to be passed off as a fact. Still wrong.

Oh no... the there is no slipping out of it like that. I have abandoned nothing, it was you that leapt upon McDonalds as a tangent. Such examples are never meant as proof, as in "this is true, so that is true"; they are meant to illustrate similarity and [hopefully] clarify meaning... as in 'These are true, and this is how'. There is all the difference in the world.

SpoilerShow

I sense the need for further example:
* Bethesda puts a lot of technical work into their product.
* McDonalds puts a lot of technical work into their product.

These are both true, and similar, but neither proves the other is true or false.

If a person doesn't understand how phenomenal game sales don't always equate to game quality, then mentioning a different example of phenomenal sales without great quality can show them ~how. This does not [and is not intended] to prove that a game is low quality; it demonstrates mass sales for cheap food. It should open them to the possibility that 'yes, this could happen elsewhere too'... it means that it's not impossible, where before, they couldn't conceive of it.

Further... Neither business seems to strive for best in class (of what they claim to produce).

Quake, Doom, Elder Scrolls, Fallout... all great games.

Agreed.

SpoilerShow

Though I bet you meant FO3 and not Fallout.
I can agree that FO3 is a great game; but it's an abysmal Fallout sequel.

You say they are just "Yes man" games made to appeal to a player ego, I say that you are one bitter nerd rager if you really feel that way. Seems like your own ego is blinding you to the greatness of Bethesda titles. Ironic.

... But the irony is not what you think... it is that they are all about equal as RPGs, if you exempt the [pre-Oblivion] TES games.

Bethesda makes beautiful open world franken-shooters [stabbers] that are both mediocre shooters and mediocre RPGs... just enough of both to be tolerable to both groups of fans. If they made really good RPGs then they would loose the shooter fans; and if they made superb shooters, then they would only hamstring them by shoe-horning in RPG mechanics. (Which no superb shooter needs).

[Anurias]

First off, the argument about McDonald's and Bethesda is based purely on opinion and not fact... second off, hasn't Bethesda gotten awards for their games, including Skyrim? I mean, I could be wrong here, but I thought they did. That would be an indication that their games are not lacking in quality and are indeed seen as good games for their genre... Now completely in my opinion, McDonald's food is nasty and tastes worse than dirt, if you like it, then you need to go taste some good food to compare it with so you'll understand why it's so nasty. As for Skyrim, it's a sandbox RPG... it's what you make it. You don't ever have to do the main story line or even acknowledge the whole dragonborn thing. That's part of the beauty of the game. You can do what you want, making it a grand 'Role Playing Game'... you can make your own role in the world around you. You can even be a villain if you want and torch towns. Although the buildings don't burn if you try that... but they people sure die.

As for comparing Grimrock to any RPG... Grimrock isn't really an RPG. It's a Dungeon Crawler. Different genre with overlaps that can be quite confusing. But, in the Dungeon Crawler genre, Grimrock 2 is simply breath-taking. That is my opinion, not fact, your opinion may vary. Is it likely to win awards? I couldn't say honestly, but I don't expect so simply because the dungeon crawling genre has been hiding under a rock for over a decade so no one really knows what they are anymore. Especially not the generation of gamers that didn't grow up with them. There's a reason the Grimrock series gets so many comments talking about 'nostalgia'. Games like this, are not in the mainstream and are rarely seen these days. However, of the games I've seen in this genre, both Grimrock games are at the top of my list for best in genre. If you don't like them then you probably don't care for dungeon crawlers and if you're comparing them to RPGs then you're comparing apples and oranges. (both may be fruits, but they don't exactly compare).

[Spathi]

Not at at all... Consider that McDonalds [for instance] is excellent at making food that sells, and they sell a hell of a lot of it ~but is it good food? Of course not.

There is a guy who has had one bigmac a day for nearly his whole life, he is about 45 or 50 or something and looks fit as a fiddle... that said he does not eat fries or coke, just the bigmac.
I often just get the bigmac and feel good/healthy after eating it (no weight gain)... if I have the other stuff I feel sick (and get fatter).

I played Grimrock too much last month, and I can easily say I could notice my mind was starting to fail.... all the repetitive pictures of things with the 4 direction mechanic does something really nasty to your head after a while, so be careful, I was waking up having had scary dreams about walls and long fights and skitzing out... actually got some drugs from the doctor to fix it... so it was seriously bad.
That said... the time filling aspect (and the old school love affair) if you have a few months between jobs, which is what I had, does make up for the crazy things it does, as long as you take breaks and a few days off each week. I noticed the people doing the walkthrough vids on youtube are often just doing an hour every few days.

Skyrim I had no such problem, as the game mechanic is smooth. I did quit from boredom though. Fallout 3 just plain rocks though.

So I personally would conclude Grimrock is the most dangerous of the 3. (actually no game b4 this has caused any problem for me, maybe I just play it too fast, pressing left, right, right, left too much, lol).
Grimrock would be healthier with a detect trap trait and a bottom caption popped up. "Toorum senses a something nearby"... like in Eye of the Beholder... at least I think it had something like that. A couple of log1 mods do that here and there and it works quite well. A trait doing it would feel more immersive as it is a character skill and a character chatting and not OCD searching every wall for buttons.

[Azel]

Not at at all... Consider that McDonalds [for instance] is excellent at making food that sells, and they sell a hell of a lot of it ~but is it good food? Of course not.

There is a guy who has had one bigmac a day for nearly his whole life, he is about 45 or 50 or something and looks fit as a fiddle... that said he does not eat fries or coke, just the bigmac.
I often just get the bigmac and feel good/healthy after eating it (no weight gain)... if I have the other stuff I feel sick (and get fatter).

I played Grimrock too much last month, and I can easily say I could notice my mind was starting to fail.... all the repetitive pictures of things with the 4 direction mechanic does something really nasty to your head after a while, so be careful, I was waking up having had scary dreams about walls and long fights and skitzing out... actually got some drugs from the doctor to fix it... so it was seriously bad.
That said... the time filling aspect (and the old school love affair) if you have a few months between jobs, which is what I had, does make up for the crazy things it does, as long as you take breaks and a few days off each week. I noticed the people doing the walkthrough vids on youtube are often just doing an hour every few days.

Skyrim I had no such problem, as the game mechanic is smooth. I did quit from boredom though. Fallout 3 just plain rocks though.

So I personally would conclude Grimrock is the most dangerous of the 3. (actually no game b4 this has caused any problem for me, maybe I just play it too fast, pressing left, right, right, left too much, lol).
Grimrock would be healthier with a detect trap trait and a bottom caption popped up. "Toorum senses a something nearby"... like in Eye of the Beholder... at least I think it had something like that. A couple of log1 mods do that here and there and it works quite well. A trait doing it would feel more immersive as it is a character skill and a character chatting and not OCD searching every wall for buttons.

Best post in this thread. lol @ them nightmares

[Spathi]

lol, yes it was freaking me out, the brain was taking photos and making up stories from them. i.e. I was dungeon crawling in my sleep.


Regarding log2 being impossible for some:
The game mechanics are better, but unless you do certain things, like focus on heavy weapons and leave areas when it gets too hard, it can get too tough. You also need a different two or so key sequence for most creatures, (better mechanic/harder if you are new to it). Having stuff like lizard resistances can make it easier if you get hit a lot or having Ratlings can make it more fun if you like getting attributes instead, although attributes don't really do much in log2 (but a group of ratings has good resistance by the end, a minotaur also has good fire resistance... they have fur so it don't make sense, but hey!). Working out where to hide... stairs, ladders, doors, pits, teleporters, water, diagonal squares are all places to hide which would be hard to realize for a new player.

Oh and as we all know, invisibility is the ultimate cheat, but I try to avoid over using it.

.. and to make the mods less taxing some great youtube videos exist, if I mixed it up watching people play and chat away, the nightmares went away. Minmay is good at it, but others can be entertaining... if not slower. I tended to play a section and then watch someone else do it with a few cups of coffee to see what I missed... that way you can be a bit less careful searching and have more fun.
ORRR2 is fun if you are waiting for good mods for log2, log1 mods like this may even be better than log2 because the complexity of log2 mods seems to make them a bit boring so far, imho.

[Azel]

I think most hardcore gamers end up having bad dreams after long hours of addiction. Although I must admit that most of my nightmares came from LoG1, not so much LoG2. Probably because the things I obsessed over in LoG1 are not prevalent at all in LoG2.

[Zo Kath Ra]

I've had two dreams about LoG2 so far.

In the first, I was walking along a river near my hometown and looking for hidden items in the water.

The second dream was weird.
My party was fighting a green dragon, and attacking it from behind.
The dragon just shot a Poison Cloud from its butt.

[any6]

Uhm big macs are actually one of the most awesome inventions ever. There's meat, white bread (luxury product 50 years ago), mustard seeds on top, cheese, vegetables. For less than 3 dollars, this is full meal, rich in almost every nutrient the body needs.

Imagine merely 200 years ago in the town where you currently live. To get such a quality and quantity of food for such a low price would be a dream come true. It would be science fiction. It's the food described in Jules Vernes stories.

Whenever I'm stuck in grimrock, I always figured it's good to take a little break, let the mind rest, eat a big mac and come back later.