On Weapon and Class balance

[Jad]

Yeah, Missile Weapons are probably the weakest IMO. Even Firearms are better until you get to ~45 dex, which if you're wasting that many crystal flowers on a back-row bow user then something is wrong.

Throwing is quite good though. One special thing they have going for them is that the offhand weapon uses the mainhand weapon's cooldown. So you should use the fastest weapon you have in your mainhand and then the slowest highest damage on in your offhand (Shuriken+Throwing Axe).

[notreally]

Dexterity also gives evasion and accuracy.
Whereas strength only adds damage (and carry weight which hardly matters in combat).

Strength is still better though, since evasion isn't all that great, and accuracy can be compensated with one or two skillpoints (which the fighter classes can usually spare).

Something like dex light weapons doing multiple strikes by default (to take advantage of criticals) might balance it out.
Well there is also backstab I guess, but I personally hardly get a chance to use it, even when having an ice mage you still need perfect conditions (open space, no other monsters to block/hurt you, oh and ice bolt actually proccing freeze which isn't reliable).


Missile weapons lack good end-game options it seems. The armor penetration is pretty good on low-ish levels though.
Also not sure why they did away with enchanted arrows, those could have added damage and utility.

[minmay]

Well there is also backstab I guess, but I personally hardly get a chance to use it, even when having an ice mage you still need perfect conditions (open space, no other monsters to block/hurt you, oh and ice bolt actually proccing freeze which isn't reliable).

You should really try invisibility some time.

[sapientCrow]

it is possible to get a +49(+) DEX character (probably +57 on average)

I have seen this statement before. Aside from having an alchy brewing dex potions only and dumping them on that character, how do you get a 50+ dex champion? rogue gear has only +1 each piece. And there are what 4 or 5 dex potions in game lying around.
Champions starting with +2 dex plus agile +2 is I believe a max start of 19 dex
19+5(full rogue)+5?(dex potions) =29
mutations and food are not exact as far as boosting stats.

29 is a far cry away from 50+. Where is the extra coming from?

[Jad]

Well when people mention high dexterity characters they are assuming you use all your crystal flowers on them. It really is the best stat to invest in with permanent potions. Strength can be buffed better with Rage potions and vitality/wisdom aren't very important.

It's something like this:
19 (19 Starting Dexterity)
33 (14 Base Crystal Flowers)
45 (12 Alchemist Flowers)
55 (10 Mutation/Cheese)
64 (9 Equipment)
68 (4 Dexterity Potions)

That's with a generous 10/22 (char level 18) random stats from Mutation/Cheese being dexterity. That may or may not require some re-rolling to achieve.

You could theoretically reach 100% evasion by instead taking the evasive starting trait and maxing dodge (82% evasion total) being a knight with a shield (97% evasion total) and then grinding out another crystal flower to finish it off (100% evasion @ 69 dexterity).

[Neutronium Dragon]

Carrying capacity can matter in combat: injuries that reduce a character's max load can leave your party slowed or immobilized; higher max load gives you more wiggle room to deal with that.

[minmay]

The injury that reduces max load also forces the encumbered move speed, so being encumbered with it doesn't actually matter (well, increases food consumption, but who cares). So the only way your carrying capacity could have an effect there is if it pushes you all the way to overloaded.

[Cronicler]

sapientCrow;

The "50 dex char" idea is a pretty simple one. Assuming that one doesn't excessively grinds;

[10 Base]
+5 Character Creation
+2 Ratling Racial
+4 Existing Potions
+14 Crystal Flower Brewed Potions
+10 to +12 Crystal Flowers from Alchemist Herb Growth Ability
+1 Tome of Leadership
+1 Cloak
+2 Necklace
+1 Head
+1 Torso
+1 Legs
+1 Feet
+2 Hands
+4 Mutation (4 Dex out of 13 or 14 levels is probably a shade under average )
+2 Food (2 dex out of 18 cheese pieces (4 or 6 stat ups) is probably a shade over average)

These net you a 61ish dex ratling, which means 51 base evasion;

51 -Base Evasion
53 -Ratling Racial
68 -5/5 Dodge
78 -Shield in off-hand
83 -Knight Class Bonus to Shield

In addition, if you are dead set on taking this to the limit, there is a possible "off-hand" orb that can give an additional +2Dex as well as Evasive trait, which provides a further +5 Evasion.


It basically results in a maxed variant of the dex knight build with 5/5 Light Weapons (Serpent Blade only, 85+ Hit chance, 55 average damage per hit) 5/5 Dodge, 2+/5 Accuracy, rest spent of Crit, Athletics and/or Concentration depending on your play style.


notreally;
Yep, as I explained in the original post, a point of dex is quite more valuable than a point of str but str has so much better synergy with class abilities (STR Crit. Warrior with Scythe, STR DW Rogue, STR Bane/Meteor Barb., STR Barb Thrower) as well as existing weapon options that Dex is pushed too far down the line to be a viable option for the burst damage* part of the party.
*I'll go into party slots and roles in the third part of my dissection, which will be done and checked for language in a few days.




minmay;
Without going into any spoilers;
I'm a very, very irritating player that plays extremely conservatively and always follows the creed of "Sir Robin the Brave". Invisibility (followed by with light/darkness and forcefield) was the spell my caster was spamming most of the time.
It was the rare but extremely deadly face-to-face encounters/ambushes

SpoilerShow

Remember the teleporting altars which teleported you into the middle of a pack of enemies and your best option was to deal as much damage as possible, as fast as possible?

that prompted me to assign a lower importance to backstab than to raw damage.

I consider "Backstab" (and special attacks by non-warriors) a luxury. I consider the portion of the game where you can set up backstab or special attacks the "normal" part of the game. When they are possible, they speed things up immensely but when it is a crisis moment, the only dependable thing is the raw damage output (and forcefields!).

[minmay]

minmay;
Without going into any spoilers;
I'm a very, very irritating player that plays extremely conservatively and always follows the creed of "Sir Robin the Brave". Invisibility (followed by with light/darkness and forcefield) was the spell my caster was spamming most of the time.
It was the rare but extremely deadly face-to-face encounters/ambushes

SpoilerShow

Remember the teleporting altars which teleported you into the middle of a pack of enemies and your best option was to deal as much damage as possible, as fast as possible?

that prompted me to assign a lower importance to backstab than to raw damage.

SpoilerShow

I agree forced face-to-face encounters are "rare", because there are exactly two of them in the game (picking up the arquebus and jumping into that one pit in the cemetery), but I disagree with "extremely deadly", because the arquebus one only contains the second weakest monster in the game, and the cemetery one is just a single enemy that even starts out stunned for a couple seconds. But you're right that invisibility and force field are waaaay more broken than backstabbing could ever be.

[Cronicler]

Oh, I'll admit that the danger from such encounters are very dependent on your gear and to a lesser extent level status and not too hard to recover from during regular gameplay but if you are playing on hard (or even worse, with the evil options on), such moments can make or break your game.
That's why the burst/single swing damage capability takes the first slot for me.
That said, these conclusions are all my own. The beauty of this game is the fact that there isn't a single way to play it, 4 Casters, 2 Gunners & 2 Battalmagus, Solo X, All lizards, BLIR, All Amazons, All Rats... the possibilities are so many.
Heck, just disliking a race's portraits is a strong enough reason to not play it.Who can argue against personal taste?