Great game but not for me

[Zergpussy]

Hi guys, i stumbled upon LoG2 reading through Rock Paper Shotgun reviews. As they are calling it a great game, i did not hesitate to play it a bit.

I really adore the oldschool tile based crawling. I once played Eye of the beholder on Amiga 500 and it is just something "heartwarming" to think back. And i really am amazed by the huge work and efforts they put into mind bending riddles and level design.

I read about this game being focused massively on solving riddles - well upon a point it did not disturb me at first, then slowly it became awkward. I never played MYST or similar games. Maybe others appreciate that more. But what is bugging me now is - i was really hoping there was more fighting/exploring. Fighting is solely done against respawning enemies in sectors (or scripted events) that will annoy you since you encountered them too often. I mean, i have to get back to places i cleared out before, just to enter the one dungeon or solve a puzzle i just was not able on the first attempt. And then voilà: the green frogs i have seen and killed 100x again. I mean it is obvious this is some kind of "refilling the level with that one enemy type with that ever same textures and behaviour, like a frog/bat/... clone army, just to make it a little less boring to walk through empty levels, which would become then much more visible on your second/third/fourth time revisiting the same sector...

But this is too much solving, less fighting/exploring. Maybe generic dungeons. Less "find the secret switch or key or meaning in senseless words" to progress. More Diablo/Torchlight but a tile based crawler... Ok here and then a puzzle but if you ask me, better just for getting bonuses than progress in the game. This annoyes me (and maybe many others) too much - having to try and err a lot or cheat via google search for the solution just to see the next area...

Am i the only one that thinks this game has gone too far in one direction?

Please don't bash me for my criticism - i know, i dont HAVE to play it. I know, i can wait for a MOD maybe once. I know, i can just keep my mouth CLOSED also.

But my slightest hope is that many people will join in and maybe there will be a game similar to LoG2 hopefully by Almost Human themselves, featuring a more combat based experience.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

best,

Zergp.

[Palandus]

I agree with you. The game isn't my cup of tea either.

I would have liked more of mid-90s Dungeon Crawlers in the game, and that is why I ended up buying it. Wish I had waited for some video reviews but it is what it is (I got it when it was 15% off). This game is made for the 80s or early 90s Dungeon Crawlers which play out a lot differently than mid 90s Dungeon Crawlers (even tile-based ones).

I would have preferred more effort done on the skill system, combat, and magic systems. Actually one of the core reasons I bought the game was the amazing skill tree blog they did back in Oct 2013. Unfortunately for some bizarre reason they cut it and instead we got stuck with this system. SIGH! If I had known that Grimrock 2 was going to have a cruddy skill system I would have waited for video reviews. But it sounded like from their previews it would be a lot better than Grimrock 1, so I put faith in them that they would deliver. If you are like me and don't really care for the puzzles, then Grimrock is a very generic dungeon crawler with crappy combat, levelling, and skill systems.

So yes, I think they went too far in one direction, but I don't think we were the target audience. The target audience was like Dungeon Master a mid 80s game, whereas we are more comfortable with combat-heavy dungeon crawlers with powerful spells, plenty of secrets, and interesting loot.

[Zergpussy]

I agree with you, but i must admit i have not enough knowledge of all the old crawlers... I liked ISHAR, if you remember it. And of course later on, Might and Magic VI..

I did not know of a cool skill tree they cut in the final release. what a shame, that is giving me a bad jolt now.

glad i am not the only one with mixed emotions towards LoG2. it shows me that both of us thought of something or hoped it to be something specific as you said and then we got both disappointed.

but i bet there are people that love it the way it is, don't want to offend them.

[Palandus]

Blogpost if interested = http://www.grimrock.net/2013/10/17/skil ... explained/
(Here they state that this is the new system intended to be implemented into the game to improve Grimrock 2 over Grimrock 1's skill system... and then they scrapped basically everything about it)

Yes, there is people who love it the way it is, and I argued with them yesterday about it. Heres a link to that post = viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7985

[Merethif]

Personally I tried Diablo and Torchlight and both those games were totally not my cup of tea. I got bored rather quickly in both cases. Yet I totally can understand they are excellent games. Just not the genre I like.

In my opinion it's good thing that there are different games on the market, each following totally different direction. It gives us, the gamers, a choice to find something we are enjoying most.

And don't forget that LoG2 comes with editor. With that tool a competent modder is most likely able to create more combat-oriented mods. So don't lose hope.

[Zergpussy]

@ Merethif thx for joining in. i am aware that games should be different. i never wanted every game after diablo/torchlight to be a spin-off or majorly influenced. i just used these well known names to point something out. i just wanted to make clear that i am disappointed of the lack in fighting/skills/exploration and so on. and that i would love a tile based dungeon crawler with complete different mechanics or game design, less focused on puzzles, solving riddles inside an enigma. on the one side good old fashioned and with puzzles for god's sake, but also modern, different, expanding he experience. maybe a cross over between "hack & slay", open world rpg, dungeon crawler...


@ Palandus i read the linked thread. people say such things "It's actually interesting to see people who seem to be new to the whole dungeon-crawling thing get into dungeon crawlers and then exclaim when they encounter one with a lot of puzzles in it. It's easy to see why game designers made the decision to reduce or exclude them, especially seeing complaints like this one, but also a little sad."

Well i admit i am no hardcore crawler and never have been. but maybe people are too narrowminded when claiming " a crawler must always be with and about puzzles".

[sapientCrow]

It would of been cool I think as well to have more skills and a more robust leveling and experience gaining system.

However...
I am really not sure what dungeon crawlers (grid based) people are reminiscing about that had more combat that did not involve going back to a some respawns that potentially may have returned. It took a lot of time to grind out higher levels. Some of the Might and Magic series did not even have respawns without mods.
And aside from M&M the other old school crawlers had some extraordinarily minimal dungeon space. Although it felt large without map drawing.

Diablo is a completely different entity. I am not sure it can even be compared to Grimrock.

I found LoG2 to be a huge improvement in many areas from LoG1.
Unfortunately because they minimalised the experience and skill system the re-playability pre-mods is not as great as it was with LoG1.

In addition as far as the Puzzles are concerned.
Thank goodness some developers still have the balls to challenge minds and potentially lose players in the process.
There are numerous and I mean numerous games that simply tell you everything to do and have an enormous amount of fighting and killing and skill trees and ... did I say more fighting.
This game appeals to a niche of people who really enjoy the way developers used to think and design back in the day.
I mean seriously go fire up Dungeon Master or Might and Magic and see how many layers exist in those designs.
I admit LoG does not have exactly that multitude of layering but it inspires to and adds new flair to it.

The progression system could use some work but I hope wholeheartedly they never do away with the puzzles and add even more esoteric and mind bending elements to them.

[Zergpussy]

@ sapient thx for your two (or three) cents.

btw i never said i wanted puzzles removed. i would love to see other RPG elements (skills/fighting/exploration/quests/rewards/stories....) made and brought to life within LoG2 with the same effort and love the devs seem to have only put in the riddles.

I think i did underestimate the riddles and puzzles, but ok, i really don't think they are too much, but they seem "too much" because there is this huge disbalance to the other traditional elements (maybe not of all crawlers, but general traditional rpg elements)... i, and i may speak for palandus, we had hopes to find within LoG2.

So that's why we are disappointed. We wanted more fighting levelling loot galore besides puzzles. Not a MYST with fighting as a side dish..

And i would like to adress that i would love to get into crawlers like LoG2 (i really like that such an oldschool game mechanic as a tile grid is back today) but i am sorry, impossible this way.

I know that there are lots of total fans that love the game like it is and i really did not mean to seem like an angry kid that is frustrated by puzzles, calling in for more action instead... actually i am in the mid thirties and my blood pressure is low.

[steelsoldier]

I think people wanted the game to have more puzzles, but not forcing the game to do them, like the high majority would be optional in order to find goodies, or extra challenges for the player that are not necessarily mandatory for the progress of the game.

I know Eye of the Beholder Games and Lands of Lore game had puzzles and specific quests items that you needed in order to solve something or progress, but for people who are mostly interested in character progression, they are mostly interested about the fights and what kinda of enemies they will face now and later on and what challenges await them.
Of course you cant please both sides.

[Palandus]

The two games I quoted "Ancients" and "DOTU" work like this:

In Ancients, you do not "see" enemies before they attack you. Every movement (or wait action) rolls a dice to determine if you encounter a monster or monsters. First few levels is very frustrating as at LV 1, practically anything can obliterate you. Once you gain a few levels, then the first floor of the dungeon is a piece of cake, and the next floor is about as hard as you were doing the first floor again albeit doing it now at LV 4-ish with the floor designed for LV 4 characters.

Ancients had a similar combat system; two in the front, two in the back, however it was all turn-based, tile-based combat. It had a lackluster skill system, but its magical spells were quite potent and melee fighters once they gain levels and some equipment can take and deal quite a bit of damage.

Whereas Dungeons of the Unforgiven, was a single player game, that was tile-based and turn-based. Its monsters were randomly generated throughout each level. If you went down 5 or so levels, then monsters would respawn. It was a permadeath game, so you have one life and make the best of it. The spells were extremely powerful (some a bit too powerful, but when you are dealing with a monster that can 2-3 hit kill your Wizard, having a spell or two that can hit just as hard back is appropriate). In Dungeons of Unforgiven, the farther down you went, the harder and nastier creatures were... with some variance. If you were on LV 1, you would only encounter LV 1 creatures. However, on LV 2, you could encounter LV 1 or 2 creatures. On level 5, you could (rarely) encounter a LV 1 or 2 monster, but more often encounter a 3, 4, 5 or rarely a 6.

In both games you had an unlimited source of experience, provided you survived long enough to spend it. In Ancients, you had to leave the dungeon and visit the Adventurer's Guild to level up. Whereas in DOTU, you had to leave the dungeon and visit the inn and pay a hefty fee to level up.

These were both I suppose you could call it, "budget" titles. DOTU was done by I think a solo developer named Steve Moraff, while Ancients was made by farrware, and published by Epic Mega Games (or just EPIC, as we now know them). They were very challenging games, that were combat heavy, with the occasional puzzle, with great spells, and good levelling mechanics (by good I mean that you feel significantly MORE powerful; unlike something like Skyrim where one level isn't always a huge thing) and since you had to fight tooth and nail to get to that level its even more worth it.