In classic D&D humans get extra feat and extra skill points as starting bonus,
so I think extra trait or +1 skill point by default would be nice in Grimrock.
Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
Here's an idea:
Let humans pick 3 traits at character creation. And possibly remove their default 10% exp bonus to balance it.
This would make humans more versatile and adaptable as is their role.
I also like the idea of replacing their exp bonus with the +1 skill point.
Let humans pick 3 traits at character creation. And possibly remove their default 10% exp bonus to balance it.
This would make humans more versatile and adaptable as is their role.
I also like the idea of replacing their exp bonus with the +1 skill point.
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
I feel kinda the opposite. I have to force myself not to make full human parties with skilled and fast learner.
Sure other races have better stats but skills are far more defining to a character than stats.
One of the issues I have with racials benefits is that a party is defined by its weakest link. Immunity to disease on one character is worthless if the other three are dead from it. With or without defensive traits, you have to prepare, square dance and reload.
Negative stat bonuses are likewise annoying. A backliner with 8 vitality or 8 dex is going to die to a flank or aoe. I like my backliners to surivve a stray attack. I don't min-max my party, I have to consider my own stupidity at times.
In that regard, humans are jack of all trades but master of none. They don't do the highest dps but likewise fit into any role. If you don't make mistakes in videogames ever, you won't need humans in your party. I'm only human so I see the benefit in having one (pun intended).
Sure other races have better stats but skills are far more defining to a character than stats.
One of the issues I have with racials benefits is that a party is defined by its weakest link. Immunity to disease on one character is worthless if the other three are dead from it. With or without defensive traits, you have to prepare, square dance and reload.
Negative stat bonuses are likewise annoying. A backliner with 8 vitality or 8 dex is going to die to a flank or aoe. I like my backliners to surivve a stray attack. I don't min-max my party, I have to consider my own stupidity at times.
In that regard, humans are jack of all trades but master of none. They don't do the highest dps but likewise fit into any role. If you don't make mistakes in videogames ever, you won't need humans in your party. I'm only human so I see the benefit in having one (pun intended).
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steelsoldier
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:57 pm
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
The 10% experience gain doesnt give you anything in a Combat situation though, I would rather start with 3 extra hit points and 3 energy points, over having a 10% experience gain, and this wouldn´t make Humans better than other races, it would give them the so called adaptability and at the same time they would still be jack of all trades.
10% Experience Gain is a sick joke, it makes sense as a racial trait if you want to take it, but it doesnt make sense as a racial starting bonus.
10% Experience Gain is a sick joke, it makes sense as a racial trait if you want to take it, but it doesnt make sense as a racial starting bonus.
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
Exactly this. Skilled is crazy good on its own and fast learner really helps with leveling. Try making a party with three non-humans and one human with skilled and fast learner; he'll start outleveling his team-mates pretty early on and will basically always have 2-3 extra skill points over the others as a result.any6 wrote:I feel kinda the opposite. I have to force myself not to make full human parties with skilled and fast learner.
Sure other races have better stats but skills are far more defining to a character than stats.
One of the issues I have with racials benefits is that a party is defined by its weakest link. Immunity to disease on one character is worthless if the other three are dead from it. With or without defensive traits, you have to prepare, square dance and reload.
Negative stat bonuses are likewise annoying. A backliner with 8 vitality or 8 dex is going to die to a flank or aoe. I like my backliners to surivve a stray attack. I don't min-max my party, I have to consider my own stupidity at times.
In that regard, humans are jack of all trades but master of none. They don't do the highest dps but likewise fit into any role. If you don't make mistakes in videogames ever, you won't need humans in your party. I'm only human so I see the benefit in having one (pun intended).
The bonuses may *feel* lackluster but only because they improve how good the human is at their chosen class instead of adding new powers.
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steelsoldier
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:57 pm
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
But isnt adaptability lost when I am forced in having 10% experience gains over everything else?
How am I meant to adapt to situations if the only ability my race has is to be 1 level ahead of everyone else but only at very particular stages of the game and the fact that I can easily kill more monsters to get the experience I need for my characters to be at the same level as my human character.
Skilled would probably be too much as a starting race bonus, because Human would be essentially 1 level ahead at all stages of the game even when it would be at the same level as other characters and you would still have the other 2 traits to pick from.
The point of the matter is, I hate the 10% Experience Gain, Food consumption reduced or anything else that doesnt have a particular impact in some situations but it can still be helpful in a variety of situations would be better for the Human Race.
Also wouldnt it be more interesting if when a Human picked a class, he would get a very small bonus depending on the class he picked?
Like for example you picked a Wizard, you would start with 3 extra Energy, If you picked a Barbarian you would start with 3 extra Health, and so forth.
How am I meant to adapt to situations if the only ability my race has is to be 1 level ahead of everyone else but only at very particular stages of the game and the fact that I can easily kill more monsters to get the experience I need for my characters to be at the same level as my human character.
Skilled would probably be too much as a starting race bonus, because Human would be essentially 1 level ahead at all stages of the game even when it would be at the same level as other characters and you would still have the other 2 traits to pick from.
The point of the matter is, I hate the 10% Experience Gain, Food consumption reduced or anything else that doesnt have a particular impact in some situations but it can still be helpful in a variety of situations would be better for the Human Race.
Also wouldnt it be more interesting if when a Human picked a class, he would get a very small bonus depending on the class he picked?
Like for example you picked a Wizard, you would start with 3 extra Energy, If you picked a Barbarian you would start with 3 extra Health, and so forth.
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
The 10% experience gain shows how adaptable a Human is to any class, imo - they just learn it better and faster than others. And of course you can kill more monsters to get the xp for your other characters but since your human is earning 10-20% more xp than the others they will never catch upsteelsoldier wrote:But isnt adaptability lost when I am forced in having 10% experience gains over everything else?
How am I meant to adapt to situations if the only ability my race has is to be 1 level ahead of everyone else but only at very particular stages of the game and the fact that I can easily kill more monsters to get the experience I need for my characters to be at the same level as my human character.
Skilled would probably be too much as a starting race bonus, because Human would be essentially 1 level ahead at all stages of the game even when it would be at the same level as other characters and you would still have the other 2 traits to pick from.
The point of the matter is, I hate the 10% Experience Gain, Food consumption reduced or anything else that doesnt have a particular impact in some situations but it can still be helpful in a variety of situations would be better for the Human Race.
Also wouldnt it be more interesting if when a Human picked a class, he would get a very small bonus depending on the class he picked?
Like for example you picked a Wizard, you would start with 3 extra Energy, If you picked a Barbarian you would start with 3 extra Health, and so forth.
I get that you don't find it interesting. But it makes sense to me, for what it's worth. And humans tend to be burdened by the "uninteresting" moniker in any fantasy game because they're, well, human, so that argument doesn't hold as much water for me as it might. =)
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
Nah Human race is pretty okay
try Human Farmer for the ultimate imba combo
try Human Farmer for the ultimate imba combo
RPG veteran
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
The thing about the 10% experience bonus is that it is a quiet achiever. Most of the other racial bonuses are less useful once you reach mid to high-level play, while the 10% experience bonus always keeps chugging along in the background slowly but surely cumulatively increasing your XP. Indeed, I saw this first hand when I created an entirely non-human party and an entirely human party for my 2 playthroughs of LOG2. The human party at the beginning felt a lot weaker, but as they progressed through the game they started outpacing the non-human party in level and by the time I had gotten 3/4 of the way through the game they were almost 2 levels higher than my non-human party and beginning to really show them up (so much so that my non-human party began to suffer in fights that my human party was waltzing through).
So, I have to strongly disagree with you steelsoldier.
So, I have to strongly disagree with you steelsoldier.
Re: Doesnt the Human Race feel lackluster?
I have to wonder how people are ending up with their Humans being 2 levels higher than everyone else at any point in the game. Early game they'll drop in and out of being 1 level higher than the rest of the party, then at midgame and late game, they'll only have about half a level over others.
It's fine if Humans are kept how they are... it's not a huge deal, but people shouldn't be advertising that Humans are getting a better deal than they actually are. It's only 10%, or 20% with a trait, and it does not put Humans multiple levels higher than other races.
If they ever release a dungeon where the intended maximum level is 20+, then this ability will be much better. But when characters are ending the game at lvl 15 or 16, it ends up being just an extra skillpoint sometimes.
It's fine if Humans are kept how they are... it's not a huge deal, but people shouldn't be advertising that Humans are getting a better deal than they actually are. It's only 10%, or 20% with a trait, and it does not put Humans multiple levels higher than other races.
If they ever release a dungeon where the intended maximum level is 20+, then this ability will be much better. But when characters are ending the game at lvl 15 or 16, it ends up being just an extra skillpoint sometimes.