Paralyzed by character creation

[Baxter]

Yeah it happens with every RPG I play, I tend to get way too caught up in trying to find what the 'optimal' character builds are that I end up taking weeks to actually play the damn game. In this case I'm trying to get a party that's both something I want to play, but also something that's not going to make the game difficult later on, which is always a danger with RPGs as you can never tell what the devs think the intended mode of play is.

I've done some searching/researching and the current draft party members are:

-Minotaur Barbarian, headhunter/endurance, heavy weapons and armor. Simple damage dealer kind of thing. This is about the only thing I'm pretty sure on to be honest.

-Ratling barbarian with mutation (not sure what other traits are worthwhile), and focusing on light weapons and critical, but I'm not sure whether that will end up being a big source of damage, or whether being in the front row means that I'll need to put points into armor until heavy armor is unlocked. Also wondering whether an insectoid would be a better choice for a dual wield build due to having the 'quick' trait and being able to combine that with the 10% cooldown reduction level 3 dodge gives.

-Ratling alchemist, mutation and weapon specialization maybe? I was thinking of doing the firearms/alchemy build that everyone seems to like but I don't actually know whether I want to even go with alchemy. I'm not a big potion-making and bomb-making kind of person in RPGs, I tend to hoard resources and never actually use them. I also don't know how plentiful ammo will be for firearms or whether it's possible to recover them, or if throwing/regular ranged weapons (bows I'm assuming) are also acceptable. In fact I really wish the firearms skill worked like the omni-gun the gadgeteer got in wizardry 8, that was a cool class. Gun but you could use any ammunition in it, bullets, darts, rocks, arrows, throwing knives, whatever.

-Last of course is a mage of some kind, although it appears that taking a battlemage is better than a regular wizard, and that also willpower/vitality is bugged and only increases your initial health/energy and not the amount you get as you level up? Also unsure of what magic schools to choose from/other skills, I remember in grimrock 1 some spells were just outright better than others, like that freezing spell that immobilized a unit/group and allowed you to get a ton of damage in.

Anyway yeah any input would be cool because I get stuck making decisions like this and never end up actually jumping in and enjoying the game. I'd look for guides and that sort of thing but unfortunately there don't seem to be any. It'd be cool if someone made a thread and compiled which traits/skills and combinations thereof are worthwhile among other things.

[Sarumorpheus]

You can definitely beat the game with that party if you're a good player.

However, I would not recommend taking firearms at the moment. Ammunition is not recoverable nor craftable (though you do find plenty throughout the game), and firearms damage does not seem to scale as well as other weapons do. From my understanding, a bow will do much better damage later on (as your characters levels) than firearms. Besides, you can always pick up arrows/bolts/knives/etc. after the enemy has been defeated.

Potions is definitely a must have, in my opinion. You do not need an alchemist character for this (but the herbs growing in your inventory is great!), but at least one of your characters should have points in the alchemy skill. Healing potions not only grant health but heal disabled/broken body parts, and energy is a requirement for both casting magic and special attacks of any class, so energy potions come in handy too. I believe you will regret not being able to craft potions. They are definitely a huge help. I'm also not much of a "bomb thrower" in games, but you'll see that they can be of use here, especially since you have fire, poison, frost and lightning bombs, which can be decent against specific enemies. (I.e., throwing a fire bomb against a frost elemental) You can craft them with alchemy, so that's a nice combination!

Regarding magic schools, my caster is pure Earth at the moment, and, while it's fun, it's not the best choice, since Earth (read poison) spells are useless against undead and golems. Furthermore, certain spells require points invested in more than one magic school, so perhaps I'd go fire and air if I were you.

[Neutronium Dragon]

The minotaur barbarian is fine, but you could just as easily make him critical-heavy. A light weapon barbarian is going to have trouble finding decent strength-based weapons to work with and dual wielding is generally a poor choice for anything other than a rogue - the damage penalty for anyone else, combined with enemy armor and cooldown management tends to turn it into a net loss. Two heavy weapon/heavy armor frontline types work just fine though.

Weapon Specialization is for melee weapons, so if the alchemist is going to focus on ranged attacks then they're better off with Agile. It's true that firearms are debatable, but an alchemist is free to use whatever weapon or spell lines they like, so they could just as easily be a missile weapon specialist. The alchemy skill is one of the strongest things in the game, so don't ignore it - the mass of health and energy potions you'll have is worthwhile all on its own, nevermind the various stat-boosting elixirs at high skill levels.

A Fire/Air/Concentration wizard is a standard type. A Cold/Concentration focus also works, although you'll need to dip into the other element types (Earth 1, Air 1) to get access to all of your spells, and might want to raise Air in parallel so you have a second energy type without cross-dependencies.

[Baxter]

You can definitely beat the game with that party if you're a good player.

However, I would not recommend taking firearms at the moment. Ammunition is not recoverable nor craftable (though you do find plenty throughout the game), and firearms damage does not seem to scale as well as other weapons do. From my understanding, a bow will do much better damage later on (as your characters levels) than firearms. Besides, you can always pick up arrows/bolts/knives/etc. after the enemy has been defeated.

Potions is definitely a must have, in my opinion. You do not need an alchemist character for this (but the herbs growing in your inventory is great!), but at least one of your characters should have points in the alchemy skill. Healing potions not only grant health but heal disabled/broken body parts, and energy is a requirement for both casting magic and special attacks of any class, so energy potions come in handy too. I believe you will regret not being able to craft potions. They are definitely a huge help. I'm also not much of a "bomb thrower" in games, but you'll see that they can be of use here, especially since you have fire, poison, frost and lightning bombs, which can be decent against specific enemies. (I.e., throwing a fire bomb against a frost elemental) You can craft them with alchemy, so that's a nice combination!

Regarding magic schools, my caster is pure Earth at the moment, and, while it's fun, it's not the best choice, since Earth (read poison) spells are useless against undead and golems. Furthermore, certain spells require points invested in more than one magic school, so perhaps I'd go fire and air if I were you.

So bows are okay and alchemy is extremely necessary, thank you!

The minotaur barbarian is fine, but you could just as easily make him critical-heavy. A light weapon barbarian is going to have trouble finding decent strength-based weapons to work with and dual wielding is generally a poor choice for anything other than a rogue - the damage penalty for anyone else, combined with enemy armor and cooldown management tends to turn it into a net loss. Two heavy weapon/heavy armor frontline types work just fine though.

Weapon Specialization is for melee weapons, so if the alchemist is going to focus on ranged attacks then they're better off with Agile. It's true that firearms are debatable, but an alchemist is free to use whatever weapon or spell lines they like, so they could just as easily be a missile weapon specialist. The alchemy skill is one of the strongest things in the game, so don't ignore it - the mass of health and energy potions you'll have is worthwhile all on its own, nevermind the various stat-boosting elixirs at high skill levels.

A Fire/Air/Concentration wizard is a standard type. A Cold/Concentration focus also works, although you'll need to dip into the other element types (Earth 1, Air 1) to get access to all of your spells, and might want to raise Air in parallel so you have a second energy type without cross-dependencies.

Okay, so dual wielding is only good for rogues and weapons can have either strength or dex damage scaling if I'm understanding correctly? I don't really like to have identical character builds in a party even if that's optimal, so question is whether I should make the second frontliner a knight (and knights/fighers are apparently mediocre) and use light weapons/shields or go full dex/cooldown with an insectoid rogue. I've read that evasion is only worthwhile at extremely high values so I'm thinking trying an evasion rogue isn't going to work, but if I put points into armor I'm not sure if I'll have enough points in weapon skills to be doing sufficient damage. Bleh

Alchemist with bow sounds workable, but if I'm going to have a ranged alchemist then it feels like waste to not use firearms... is it possible to put 1 point into ranged/throwing so that he can use them when ammunition for firearms is scarce? Or is that just going to spread them too thin?

[Sarumorpheus]

weapons can have either strength or dex damage scaling if I'm understanding correctly?

Yep, that's right. My rogue happens to have one weapon relying on Dexterity and another on Strength for extra damage. Let me show you a picture to illustrate:

SpoilerShow

Alchemist with bow sounds workable, but if I'm going to have a ranged alchemist then it feels like waste to not use firearms... is it possible to put 1 point into ranged/throwing so that he can use them when ammunition for firearms is scarce? Or is that just going to spread them too thin?

My rogue has zero points in missile weapons but his secondary weapon slot is still occupied by a bow/crossbow. In theory, you shouldn't need to devote points into those skills to use ranged weaponry (depending on the weapon as well, since some weapons have skill requirements), though the more skill points you have the better you are at using them. Having said that, all firearms I have found need at least 1 point in the firearms skill.

---

There's something else worth understanding in LoG 2 also, which is melee weapon types.

You have light weapons (which can be one-handed, such as a dagger; or two-handed, such as a spear)

and then you have heavy weapons (which can be one-handed, such as a club; or two-handed, such as a warhammer)

If you devote enough points into the heavy weapons skill, you are able to use two-handed weapons (be them light or heavy) on one hand, while the other may be occupied by a shield, for instance. Something worth considering for your tank, especially since the best weapons I've been seeing so far are mostly heavy weapons.

[Baxter]

weapons can have either strength or dex damage scaling if I'm understanding correctly?

Yep, that's right. My rogue happens to have one weapon relying on Dexterity and another on Strength for extra damage. Let me show you a picture to illustrate:

SpoilerShow

Alchemist with bow sounds workable, but if I'm going to have a ranged alchemist then it feels like waste to not use firearms... is it possible to put 1 point into ranged/throwing so that he can use them when ammunition for firearms is scarce? Or is that just going to spread them too thin?

My rogue has zero points in missile weapons but his secondary weapon slot is still occupied by a bow/crossbow. In theory, you shouldn't need to devote points into those skills to use ranged weaponry (depending on the weapon as well, since some weapons have skill requirements), though the more skill points you have the better you are at using them. Having said that, all firearms I have found need at least 1 point in the firearms skill.

---

There's something else worth understanding in LoG 2 also, which is melee weapon types.

You have light weapons (which can be one-handed, such as a dagger; or two-handed, such as a spear)

and then you have heavy weapons (which can be one-handed, such as a club; or two-handed, such as a warhammer)

If you devote enough points into the heavy weapons skill, you are able to use two-handed weapons (be them light or heavy) on one hand, while the other may be occupied by a shield, for instance. Something worth considering for your tank, especially since the best weapons I've been seeing so far are mostly heavy weapons.

Okay I didn't realize that light weapons came in two handed variants also, but now that I think about it yeah that would be a thing. I'd still like to have my second front row guy use light weapons, I just can't decide whether that's via weapon+shield, two handed, or dual wielding. I don't quite understand how using one strength weapon and one dex weapon increases damage, unless you mean that it just allows you to use two good weapons of different stats rather than one good one slightly worse weapon of the same stat. It just seems difficult to make dual wielding have both a respectable damage output and still allow the character to be survivable. I mean the way I see it you've got to put points in light weapons, armor, 3 points in dodge for the cooldown reduction, and then critical as well for backstab bonuses. There's also the decision to make between insectoid's +10% cooldown trait, or ratkin mutation. Cooldown would be better if you're using one type of weapon (dex or strength) but ratkin could increase both strength and dex with mutation. Actually insectoid could get chitin as well for +10 protection, so maybe you could get away with only having light armor?

[Sarumorpheus]

I don't quite understand how using one strength weapon and one dex weapon increases damage, unless you mean that it just allows you to use two good weapons of different stats rather than one good one slightly worse weapon of the same stat.

The damage of the dagger increases as the character's dexterity does and the damage of the sword increases as strength does. It's the best light weapon dual-wield combination I have come across so far. Besides, I had to hold onto a dagger for backstab (which I don't anymore, since I have reached skill level of 5 in critical). So, I'm just waiting for a better drop, really. Lately I've been getting pieces of epic heavy armor, a couple of epic shields, and decent heavy weapons, so nothing that great for the rogue, though he does have Rogue gear (no armor skills required), which grants a boost to dexterity per piece equipped.

It just seems difficult to make dual wielding have both a respectable damage output and still allow the character to be survivable.

My rogue is extremely fragile, unfortunately, which is why he's on the back row.

... so maybe you could get away with only having light armor?

My minotaur barbarian is specialized only up to light armor, and while he's not as durable as my insectoid protection+health knight, he can definitely hold a good amount of punishment. (+ potions )

[Vardis]

You could try this:
Mino barbarian, head hunter and I tend to pick either endurance/aura/martial. Heavy to 5, armor to 4, 2+ accuracy, 1+ crit
Ratling alchemist, mutuation and endurance (to help with armor weight). Dex build, so 5 light weapons, 4 armor, crit/dodge
Lizard alchemist, resist elements and endurance (I like to carry lots of stuff). Str build (str+vit points), 2 acc, 5 light weapons, 5 alchemy, rest probably crit, although I might pick up 2 concentration, for a very useful utility spell.
Ratling alchemist, mutation, strong mind. 3 in concentration and all mage skills, then an extra 2 in fire and 1 in air (give skill books)

That gives a heavy strength, light dex, light strength, and mage type character. You can buff up any weak areas with alchemist +stat potions (you'll get a lot with 3 of them). You've got a high resistance character who should survive your party getting pummeled by magic, so he can make an escape. I toyed with putting him in front, but he needs accuracy anyway due to being a strength build, while the dex character doesn't, so that saves skill points needed elsewhere.

If you aren't playing on hard, ranged may be worth your while. On hard, most monsters move fast, and are going to be in melee range quickly.

[Balcombe]

It took me a few days to commit to a party after I had tried several compositions, some which seemed fine, and others which felt pretty gimpy. As much as I liked the more exotic mixes, what I wound up with is an all human party (Barbarian and Alchemist up front, and two wizards in the back.

Frontline: I've invested in heavy armor/heavy weapons/athletics for the barbarian, and heavy armor and alchemy for the alchemist. I started speccing the alchemist towards light weapons, but honestly, light weapons seem to suck on non-rogues, and after reading posts that seemed to confirm this, I swapped the alchemist to heavy weapon spec and a shield, which he needed since he can't tank as well as the barbarian, but he is still a decent fighter. The barbarian has tanked extremely well so far (level 8, assuming I'm somewhere around halfway+ through the game), and the alchemist has been hit and miss, but he makes plenty of ingredients to brew lots of potions, which is sort of the point.

Backline: Two wizards - One Fire/Air/Concentration, the other Earth/water/concentration. Fire has been wrecking everything. Definitely recommend a fire/air wizard for sure. Earth and water have been a bit underwhelming so far, but dispel and poison bolt have been pretty useful from time to time, and I'm hoping the freeze-bolt will help make up for the lack of fire.

In retrospect, I think two alchemists in the back (two people to duplicate herbs) specced as mages with two barbarians up front would have been even better - as their balanced stats and level up gains give them both some decent survivability, as well as a suitable manapool. The biggest handicap for this set up would be not having an item to cast spells with right off the bat (mages and b.mages can cast from bare-hands, but other classes need to obtain a staff or orb first to cast spells, which you can get pretty early). And sure, mages will have higher willpower naturally and thus a higher mana pool, however, two alchemists could make so many energy potions, their total mana pool wouldn't even matter!

So, there are some ideas for you. I've loved my party so far, and they have had their ups and downs. My wizards seem to crumple (on normal) from two-three hits, or a few spells, and my front-line is fairly durable, aside the alchemist when he takes a few unlucky hits, but he also makes more than enough shield, health, and energy potions to more than make up for any deficiencies.

That being said, I can give you a few things to consider in the meantime:

Power/special attacks on weapons take time to charge, which is infinitely too long, and it winds up being very situational. Point is, you likely won't be using them too much, as the regular attacks are quicker and easier to use, especially if you have some mages to cast spells with. The fighter class seems best ignored in the mean time.

Guns suck. Don't bother, even with the alchemist.

Ratlings can't save/reload to pick optimal mutation bonuses upon level up.

In Legend of Grimrock 1, Evade was king, but protection is more boss in LoG2, and evade seems harder to stack as well. But don't try to max one at the expense of the other, as both are very useful, though prot seems to pull ahead most of the time.

Some of the higher level spells take multiple schools of magic to cast. You might want to take a look at the spell list and plan accordingly, as picking random magic schools could seriously gimp your character build depending on what you are aiming for.

[Alaric]

I am not buying the whole "alchemy is necessary" thing. So far I've not brewed a single potion or made a single bomb. I've used two of the health potions I found and one fire bomb. The rest is just sitting there, waiting for some boss or something.

Here is the party I have along with the reasoning behind setting it up that way:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7057&start=20#p77204