Weapon special attack balance

[Saice]

and now that the +50% evasion from sheilds

This amounts to what over the course of the game, 2-5 extra protection? Negligible difference. Again, I'd rather just have more HP.

Its not Extra protection its Extra Evasion. Hence the Dex based knight comment. The mix of being able to take a hit and also just outright evade hits it what makes him work later on. Load him up with on of the light armors that give Protection and Evasion and his natural Protection bonus plus the extra evasion from high dex and the 1.5 shield is where it starts to work.

Mind you I am not arguing that taking two barbs up front is math mathematically the best way to do things. Just a little boring when you have options that are at least by mid game close enough party survival wise that make it more interesting.

[sergregor]

Its not Extra protection its Extra Evasion. Hence the Dex based knight comment. The mix of being able to take a hit and also just outright evade hits it what makes him work later on. Load him up with on of the light armors that give Protection and Evasion and his natural Protection bonus plus the extra evasion from high dex and the 1.5 shield is where it starts to work.

Sorry I meant to say evasion, just a typo. Point still stands though, 2-5 evasion is literally nothing. The fallacy you're making here is that the Knight is good because he can avoid some attacks if he stacks evasion, but the truth is that any class can stack evasion 99.9% as effectively. The shield bonus amounts to virtually nothing. Besides, even if you go out of your way to stack as much evasion as you can, it's still not very good in this game. The super high evasion gear just doesn't exist to make an overpowered dodge tank like you could in Grimrock 1.

Mind you I am not arguing that taking two barbs up front is math mathematically the best way to do things. Just a little boring when you have options that are at least by mid game close enough party survival wise that make it more interesting.

Oh, I totally agree that it's boring. That's why I think it's important to point out the imbalances because we have an opportunity here for them to be patched. Right now I think Barb is demonstrably the best class for virtually any purpose, except a dedicated spellcaster, and he's not even that terrible at that either.

[Eldur]

I agree and saw it coming. I suggested an alternative form of charging a year ago that would have solved this problem:

http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic ... B6r#p64351

I'd do it a bit different: Charge like now by holding the RMB, but do not let it go off when releasing the button. Instead, the charged attack should be done just like the normal one by clicking RMB once. Also, the charge should be removed as soon as the weapon leaves the hand, so it's at least possible to cancel the charge attack by double clicking LMB. This would make it possible to charge up the weapons and actually use those attacks efficientlym especially if more party members have different weapons with useful charge attacks each. And it would probably be a small change to untie the actual attack from the press-hold-release mechanism and just execute it like any attack that just needs the weapon to be charged before the attack.

[sapientCrow]

In theory yes these new charged attacks are awesome.
In actual game play with the speed of enemies and the increased precision needed compared to LOG1 they do not avail themselves well at all.
I definitely think an option like the one posted where you click and it charges then you click again to release it would work much better.
As it stands now I have to strafe while charging which can add flair or a different tactic but is not efficient.
This problem is also felt with backstab imo where the only real creatures you can backstab proper are petty ones like twigs turtles and zarchs
I did not like not having control over my weapon's special in LOG1 much but at least I did see them more often than I do now.
Aside from leech to spare a health pot with my rogue I rarely use specials.
Which interestingly I did with an zombie and ouch!

The current design can work out well with the larger more formidable foes. The ones that you can simply not stand toe to toe with for any length of time.
Strafe charge hold release. Still the double click charge would work out better.

[AdmiralDan]

Today in the pyramid: My frontliners usually dealing like 30-50 damage per hit. Then special attack + critical: 580 damage. Me:

My point: I like them.

[Saice]

Today in the pyramid: My frontliners usually dealing like 30-50 damage per hit. Then special attack + critical: 580 damage. Me:

My point: I like them.

The issue is not that they can be nice here and there. The issue really is the way they are now you would not want to use them as the main focus of attack as you would in theory do with the fighter.

They can indeed be really nice in the right setting and if your lucky. But over all they are kind of lacking in that milage wise most normal attacks end up being better from the point of view of cycling your whole party over holding your charge to do a special attack.

Of course this also depends on the weapon in question. But over all most of the special attacks are fairly Meh

[Luj1]

.... the only real creatures you can backstab proper are petty ones like twigs turtles and zarchs.

Just did 246 backstab damage to Ice elemental with my lvl 12 human Farmer (plain non-magical longsword in hand)

[Luj1]

But over all most of the special attacks are fairly Meh

I like flurry and volley

I can net 2x 110 damage with volley on my lvl 7 bow Rogue.

[Chimera005ao]

They can indeed be really nice in the right setting and if your lucky. But over all they are kind of lacking in that milage wise most normal attacks end up being better from the point of view of cycling your whole party over holding your charge to do a special attack.

Wait... are you guys standing in front of the enemy and charging?
I might do that if I am cornered and wanted to knock something back, but usually I am standing where the enemy can't hit me, charge, open with the charge, then cycle my other party members anyways. Not missing out on anything.

SpoilerShow

Anyone use Harvest Time, or whatever it was called on the Scythe? Chance to 10x crit sounds amusing with a heavy two-handed weapon. But I didn't build crits on my fighter, so I opted to use another weapon instead.

[Saice]

But over all most of the special attacks are fairly Meh

I like flurry and volley

I can net 2x 110 damage with volley on my lvl 7 bow Rogue.

Yes some are pretty good. But there are more meh ones out there then good. It all depends on your build and luck if you can take advantage of them.