Ideas about Grimrock 2

[Greco]

Well, given that LOG2 is on the making, I would like to share some of my thoughts (and prompt others as well to do the same) about what improvements could the new game have.
First of all I want to state that for me the EOB series stands out (far above any other rpg that was ever made), as the landmark for rpg games. But why?
For me It's not the graphics, its not the sound or the gameplay (though this latter is also very important). Recall, though that there were many games with the same gameplay, better graphics and sound since then, but no one reached the level of the EOB series (and particularly EOB2), with, perhaps, the single exception of Land of Lore 1. For me what made the series distinct were two things:
1) The atmosphere of the game, which was defined mainly by the story, and the claustrophobic sense that the dungeons exhaled (which was also accounted much to the story). Now this atmosphere was greatly enhanced by the cutscenes (which were many in EOB2, the best of the 3), which advanced the story greatly.
2) Another thing that made EOB unique, is that it was designed from the beginning with the thinking that it will consist of three games. That's why players are given the option to transfer their party from EOB1 to EOB2 and then EOB3, and moreover level advancement was also tailored to these 3 games perspective. I think this enhanced greatly players bond with the game and accounts much for their love towards it.

Of course LOG 1, sadly was not designed with this perspective of a sequel, probably because nowadays, it is difficult to "promise" from the start a 3 games sequel, when none of them is released, and you do not know whether it would be a critical success or a spectacular failure (to borrow the words of the great Tim Schaffer). But, perhaps, now since Almost Human has seen the critical success of the game, and the love of the players community, they can redefine their approach towards a multiple parts games, where players could import their party from LOG2 to (why not) LOG3!
And please consider item (1) as well; cutscenes and story advancement.

Please post your thoughts as well.

[Jaelus]

I completely agree with you. EOB, EOB2, and Lands of Lore were the best in the genre, but I would also include Stonekeep in that list. It had great puzzles, tons of secrets, interesting companions, and a compelling story.

Here's my wish list for Grimrock 2:

• Make experience distribute evenly to the entire group, removing the character hit requirement.
  It was a nice idea but it doesn't work so well in practice. It penalizes higher level attacks that can one shot a mob (Assassination, Daggers, Missile Volley, etc..) and penalizes using some strategies. If my front line Warriors want to protect the party (Armors/Athletics) and do potion crafting, but do no damage, and my Mage wants to use mana to cast Invisibility and party buffs and let my Rogue Backstab and one shot mobs, why shouldn't the Mage and Warriors get experience? Having to have a character do 1 damage to a mob to get full experience is completely arbitrary and limits character choices by diminishing the value of alternate types of contribution.
  It's also really hard to deal with when you have multiple mobs in one square (i.e. the skeletal quads). Missile users had to be swapped from one side to the other to ensure hitting the right one, and you had to waste time making sure everyone attacked each skeleton in the quad. This breaks the immersion since you're forced to play in a way that caters to this mechanic instead of doing what the characters should be doing which is disposing of the mobs as efficiently as possible. The only time a character should not be earning experience is if they are dead.

• Make the crystals less powerful.
  I would definitely make them single use only and either effect only one character instead of the entire party or heal the entire party but not resurrect. I would include special magic items that can resurrect a character a limited number of times (like in EOB2).

• Add a race specific trait that is only usable by Lizardmen.
  Minotaurs and Insectoids both have one, why not Lizardmen?

• Buff the Insectoid race specific trait.
  Maybe add a further decrease in food consumption rate or +5 all elemental resists (tougher Insectoid can survive harsh conditions)? It's very underpowered as-is.

• Increase the protection bonuses in the Warrior's Armors skill tree.
  I would move the 50 pt skill (+25 protection) and make it the 30 point, or have something that adds a percentage bonus to your protection from armor (similar to how the Dodge tree works). Compare the 50 pt Armors skill to the +20 Evasion bonus you get at skill level 30 in Unarmed, which is a weapon skill. A Warrior cannot go to the 50 point Armors talent viably unless they have anemic weapon skill, which is not a realistic skill path. Protection is relatively weak compared to evasion in the amounts that are realistically obtainable by a character. Make the 50 point Armors an ability like shield wall where it will occur once in awhile and increase protection by 100 for 5 seconds or something like that. If someone really puts 50 points into Armors they should get something spectacular. Right now the points are better spent elsewhere.

• Add in a couple new classes like Monk and Ranger.
  If you add Monk, give them the Unarmed skill as-is, but remove Unarmed from the Warrior and Rogue skill trees and replace them with other skills. Rogues can get Lockpicking and Warriors can get Reach Weapons. Alternatively, or perhaps in addition to this, create a new skill for Warriors and Rogues called Brawling, which would replace Unarmed and would allow for the use of Brawling weapons: brass knuckles, claws, maybe even a broken bottle for fun.
  The Monk skill list would look something like this: Athletics (Warrior), Dodge (Rogue), Maces (Warrior), Unarmed Combat (Warrior/Rogue), Earth Magic (Mage), One skill that's unique to Monks - something equivalent to the Assassination tree for Rogues.

• Add a lockpicking system!
  Create some locks without keys that have to be picked to open them in order to get bonus treasure (some nice items should only be obtainable this way). Some locks should not be pickable, but some that are used for minor puzzles should be pickable as well. Picking should consume a lockpick and the quantity of available lockpicks should be finite. Lockpicks should only be usable by characters that have the Lockpicking skill, and it should be a Rogue only skill. Here's a sample of what a Lockpicking skill tree could look like:
  
  Level Ability Gained
  4 Dexterity +1
  8 Lockpicking (Ability to pick locks that do not have keys)
  12 Evasion +5
  16 Dexterity +1
  20 Evasion +5
  23 Improved Lockpicking (Ability to pick some locks that have keys)
  27 Evasion +5
  31 Dexterity +1
  35 Evasion +5
  40 Enhanced Perception (Chance to spot secrets)
  45 Dexterity +2
  50 Master Lockpicking (Lockpicks no longer break after use)

• Add a Reach Weapons skill for Warriors.

• Change the hand icon to something different for characters that have skill in Unarmed.

• Add an Accuracy requirement to hit with Missile/Thrown weapons.
  It's just broken the way it is now. I don't automatically hit swinging a Sword at a mob from 2 feet away but I automatically hit shooting an arrow from 50 feet? If anything, hitting with the Missile requires a lot MORE accuracy than hitting with the Sword. The way it's implemented now is nonsensical.

• Crossbow damage should not be affected by Strength, Crossbow reload time, however, should be reduced with higher Strength.
  Bow/Sling/Thrown damage should be increased with higher Strength, as it is now.

• Include NPCs that can join the party during play.
  You should have the option to replace one of your party members with the NPC (if you don't have an open slot). This gives you the option of creating unique NPCs that are of races or classes that you can't use in character creation, while ensuring they are balanced because they are pre-created. The EOB games, Lands of Lore, and Stonkeep all use this concept, and it is one of the best aspects of those games. Adding NPCs can also drive the story, unlocking additional quests or adding new abilities to the party.

[Gekkibi]

This is going to be my first post on these forums. I've beaten the game on normal-normal and hard-solo, and here's what I'd like to see in LoG 2. Just my 0.02€, nothing more.

- more attributes
I have never liked "this attribute increases how many hitpoints you have while this increases your maximum mana". I prefer 1/2 * str + vit = HP & 2 * int + wis = mana, for example. Energy and stamina should be two different things. This would increase the potential of melee mages. And speaking of melee mages ->

- new classes
Generally I don't like pure fighters and pure mages. I enjoy having hybrid classes. Unfortunately there are none in LoG (except The One). Poor examples: Druid (earth magic + one or two weapon skills), cleric a'la D&D (maces + armor + spellcraft, assuming we're going to get more spellcraft spells), and so on. Not sure if it would be too much a gamebreaker, but it would be nice if we could create our own classes and decide which skills to pick (sounds like min-max to me).

- more spells
Right now almost all the spells are direct damage dealers. Couple of suggestions/examples: Dispel spell for dispelling shields, shield spell for shielding the group against all damage and healing spells.

- possibility to take less than 4 champions
What if I want to have my own little difficulty level and pick less than 4 champions? Soloing LoG was awesome; too bad I had to use a class I didn't like that much (mostly because energy is both stamina and mana).

- weapon weaknesses
Didn't notice during my playthrough, but as far as I know enemies in LoG don't have any kind of weapon weaknesses. Undead should have weakness against maces for example.

- even experience distribution
Repost... Read what Jaelus said. Also, I'd like that you can earn experience outside of battle (finding secrets, etc).

- no crystals at all
I only slept once during my playthroughs. Why sleep when you can hug a crystal..?

- feature to prevent door-jerking
You were able to use doors as a weapon in Dungeon Master, but the enemy was still able to attack your party. In LoG you can exploit the doors by opening it, attacking and quickly closing the door. What if some enemies could attack through portculis (slimes, spiders (eww those hairy legs!)) or stop the door from closing (trolls for example)?

- more trap types
I loved the arrow traps in Stonekeep. Not sure how hard it would be, but crushing wall/roof trap would be awesome as well, nuff said.

- balanced HP/energy gain per level
Right now it is more beneficial to pump up willpower and/or vitality when you're creating a new character. There's also a chance that you will make your characters even more crappier if you make a fatal mistake and use - willpower items... Also, wearing + items when you gain a level smells like Baldur's Gate.

- less scary spiders (toggle in options)
I know there's a thread for this, but still going to add it to my wishlist. The devs can't do anything about claustrophobia because it would severely alter the game, but changing spiders to cows (saw that editor preview ) don't change the gameplay at all. They would have identical stats. I managed to beat Legend of Grimrock twice, but my sanity dropped 1d20. I have mild arachnophobia, and usually spiders are not an issue in games, but I'm not sure whether Olli deserves a medal or a beating... My first experience with a spider in LoG was not very pleasant (jumped when I turned to face it. ALT+F4 ALT+F4 ALT+F4)

- vendors
No, I don't want to pick everything up (stones, spears, shields, scrolls and notes) only so I can sell them. But if there's going to be multiple dungeons and traveling in LoG 2 then I would like to purchase more food, torches and potions before I venture forth. It's nice to know that I can always go back and buy more yummy snail meat rather than starve to death. Of course, vendors should be outside the dungeon...

- more props
Chairs, tables, cabinets, weapon racks, etc. In my opinion there weren't enough props in LoG. Armory didn't look like armory. Even better: Doors with hinges...

- quick item slots
I don't like having my inventory screen open if I want to use potions, nor do I want to sacrifice 2nd hand slot for that. What if we would have a third item slot that you can active without entering the inventory screen (works just like hand slots). This extra slot would only accept potions.

[Dr.Disaster]

This is going to be my first post on these forums. I've beaten the game on normal-normal and hard-solo, and here's what I'd like to see in LoG 2. Just my 0.02€, nothing more.

Beside the attribute and class thing (they are hardcoded in LoG) pretty much everything you ask for was already or is modded in by the community. Feel free to check some of those listed here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4361

- more spells -> already build into several mods
- possibility to take less than 4 champions -> already build into several mods plus it's doable everywhere with a few console commands
- weapon weaknesses -> not sure about that but since new monsters can be defined from the very ground up ..
- even experience distribution -> already build into several mods
- no crystals at all -> that's only a good idea when you're fond of Hardcore mode (1 life per char only + perma-death)
- feature to prevent door-jerking -> how can this be an exploit in LoG but not in DM?
Also: slimes CAN and DO already attack thru portculis plus some mods also added this for other monsters and characters
- more trap types -> already added by modders and more are in the making
- balanced HP/energy gain per level -> that's boring, makes absolutly no sense when asking for better attribute -> life/mana formulars at the same time
- less scary spiders (toggle in options) -> the LoG spider is a perfectly build monster. Which other one do you recall that made you jump?
- vendors -> already in the making
- more props -> already there and in the making

[Gekkibi]

Beside the attribute and class thing (they are hardcoded in LoG) pretty much everything you ask for was already or is modded in by the community.

I know there are whole bunch of scripts that can do most of this. I just wish you don't have to DIY these in LoG 2 and that the original "campaign" supports these. "You can always mod it" is a bad excuse not to improve the base game, and I hope it's not like that with LoG 2.

- feature to prevent door-jerking -> how can this be an exploit in LoG but not in DM?

Because in DM the enemy was able to attack you while being crushed by the door. In LoG it can't, because doors are between grids, not a separate grid tile.

- balanced HP/energy gain per level -> that's boring, makes absolutly no sense when asking for better attribute -> life/mana formulars at the same time

I meant that it is more important to boost vitality when you haven't leveled up much. If you gain +1 vitality when you're lvl 13 then that gives you absolutely nothing. HP / energy gain should be retroactive (there's already a thread about this).

- less scary spiders (toggle in options) -> the LoG spider is a perfectly build monster. Which other one do you recall that made you jump?

Indeed. Spiders sure gave a huge boost to the horror factor. Unfortunately it can be (way) too much for someone. There's no reason not to have an alternative model, especially when they already made the cow (MOO!). Or it could be as stupid as a floating explanation mark without any kind of animation. Sure, it would ruin the immersion and atmosphere... But then again if you want to have spiders, immersion and atmosphere then you can use the original model. If spiders are an issue to you then you must choose between atmosphere and irrational fear. I know half a dozen potential customers who refuse to buy LoG because of the spiders alone...

[petri]

Thanks for the well thought out ideas. Keep them coming, but let's not turn this into yet another spider thread

[Neikun]

I rather prefer doors being in between grids, rather than on them. I don't like the idea of attacking with a door, but I do like using it as shelter.
However, as this is being made with modding in mind, I am fully in support of, for custom dungeons, a button that toggles whether the door is on the edge of the tile or in the centre, and subsequently can be used to damage enemies trapped inside.

[leifina]

Just no NPC's, no open world, and no towns, and no hacknslash, please!

Just give me a REAL Grimrock 2 !!!!!

[Ixnatifual]

Make experience distribute evenly to the entire group, removing the character hit requirement.

I can only agree.

Make the crystals less powerful.

I actually prefer the way they are now. I think limited use is too harsh and could encourage too much save/reload situations whenever someone dies.

Add a race specific trait that is only usable by Lizardmen.

Definitely. Maybe the ability to spit venom?

Buff the Insectoid race specific trait.
Maybe add a further decrease in food consumption rate or +5 all elemental resists (tougher Insectoid can survive harsh conditions)? It's very underpowered as-is.

I don't know how powerful the racial trait is compared to other traits, but if it's so weak you'd almost never pick it, it could probably use some help.

Increase the protection bonuses in the Warrior's Armors skill tree.

Again, not sure about the power level. But if protection is too weak in general, perhaps just having protection points in general help more could also be a possible solution.

Add in a couple new classes like Monk and Ranger.

Definitely room for more classes. A plethora of possibilities exist in various fantasy games. Ranger seems obvious as it already exists as a hidden class in LoG1. Of course it'd need some tweaking. We're also missing out spiritually themed classes such as clerics, shamans and paladins. We know priesthoods exist in the world from for example the Sword of Nex description. Not a huge fan of monks in particular (or at least, the martial artist kind), but that obviously comes down to taste.

Add a lockpicking system!

It would be nice to see lockpicking and possibly other miscellaneous rogue skills. Maybe as different trees or in a single tree. Other interesting rogue abilities could include trap placement, trap disabling or theft (stealing the weapon out of the hand of your opponent, for example, like some of the Lands of Lore monsters do).

Add a Reach Weapons skill for Warriors.[/list]

Oh yeah. Can definitely see potential for that, from light spears to advanced polearms. I can already imagine a cool pure warrior party working like this.

Add an Accuracy requirement to hit with Missile/Thrown weapons.

I agree. Oh, and add more ammunition.

Include NPCs that can join the party during play.

Depending on how it's done, I may or may not want to see that. For example I wouldn't want them to replace one of my own characters, and I wouldn't want to be forced to remove one of my own characters in order to see all of the game's content. That would just be a big "FU" by the game as far as I'm concerned. But for example if you could have your own 4 guys and a possible extra free slot for an NPC, you could switch out NPCs when appropriate or dictated by the game without losing your own carefully built guys. That presents some problems with the positional system LoG uses currently, though.

[tomohiko]

I hope it will be More "Speaker Friendly" than headphone.

I played this game both Speaker and Headphone.

Below is what I found

In Grimrock 1,
Sound of Sliding Walls(Lifting Gate) is very small, you can't notice it (especially you don't have headphone).

While Sound of hitting Walls with Sword/Axe is very big, seriously it hurts ears.