Legnds..Northern Realms; juhos msg (rat race) & prj support

[Arkos]

With our relatively small inventories, this item idea could become a problem. And it feels a little funny, realism-wise. Why would you need to pick up a rock to take another step along what should be a seamless path?

Good point! There might be a way to trigger teleportation to the next section by using a hidden pressure plate viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4563 This way while you are walking and step on one of these, you are automatically moved to the next section fairly seamlessly—no more stupid rocks! LOL. For people who don’t want to travel the entire distance from the Xafi desert to Grotto of Xazarra (you probably already wiped out all the creatures in the Toll Islands getting to the Xafi desert), we could have a teleportation room, which has telerporters to major cities around the LoG world.

is decent looking "outside" areas...hard to keep everything from looking like boxes and corridors given the engine.

I think over time, people that may start out with boxy looking corridors will improve them; this isn’t Halo 4 The expansive gameplay would make up for it.

Something like this may require a scripting framework file, in addition to the various dungeons and textures and such.

I’m new to modding; just bought the game only a couple weeks ago. A scripting framework file may be required; I’m hoping someone with more experience and time will volunteer to take over the task of compiling everyone’s dungeon into one. People creating the dungeons just need to collaborate with the person in charge of compiling everyones’ dungeons on how and where they want their dungeon connected to the LoG world: hidden/regular teleporter or stairs. So, someone with a new dungeon wanting to connect to the Hidden Hills or Storm Peaks would submit their work to the person in charge of compiling the dungeons, and they would both work out the details on where the entrance points would be.

So far, I think how this whole thing would work is that the LoG world would be completely modularized—dungeons connected together (compiled into one dungeon) by hidden pressure plate teleporters (mentioned above), regular teleporters, and stairs. Everyone is in charge of their own dungeon, which textures, tilesets, etc. that go in them. So, it is really just a matter of connecting them together. Example: an outdoor environment tileset dungeon would have a stairs entrance or teleporter entrance to a dungeon like The Mine of Malan Vael which has completely custom tilesets. How this would start: an outdoor environment dungeon may take up 10 levels; there are no stairs in the levels 1-9 though, just hidden pressure plate teleporters that go from one level to the next. From the players point of view, you are still walking down the same path in that outdoor dungeon. On the tenth level (from the editor’s point of view) there would be stairs or a regular teleporter to a traditional dungeon; the traditional dungeon may have 8 levels. So, the main compiled dungeon now has 18 levels in the editor—10 levels that are on the same flat plain from a player’s point a view and 8 levels that go up/down from both the editor’s and player’s point of view. When you finish the 8th level of the traditional dungeon, you just get teleported out to another area, which could be levels 19, 20, etc. in the editor. We would just keep piecing it together like that—hopefully

Any volunteers to be the person in charge of compiling the dungeons?

[msyblade]

TLC is a great mod, don't let lack of player feedback disappoint you crom, it's actually a good thing in this business. When HH2 had unidentified bugs to work out, I got comments/feedback constantly. Now that it's finished, and all polished up, I haven't had any messages, comments, or feedback for about 4 weeks. It is still downloaded frequently, but I almost regret including a walk thru for people who get stuck, cause now they REALLY don't need to contact me, long story long, TLC was fairly polished from the get go, so I hate to hear you seem discouraged. It's good work, and if we can rally around this project and get the backing/support, I would totally expect TLC to be there. (Hopefully TLC2 by then!) Unless you're referring to someones specific comments that were negative, in which case I'm curious to know what negatives they could find in the mod, as I was impressed.

Speaking of backing/support, a couple of thoughts:

The ability to use a connector to save the state of a dungeon, and load another .dat file then implement the save state from inside the game would be incredible. you could make the hub, and just collect the dungeon.dat files you need, with connectors to the different .dats (I'm thinking intro cinematic and all) Allowing us to connect worlds quickly and easily. (That probably didn't make as much sense as it does in my head. I'll flesh it out when I can word it better.)

With the currently available tools, No one is more qualified to make this concept a reality than Edsploration and HaunterV. The CFD project is very similar in nature. Here's hoping they catch this thread and have some more hair to pull out when the CFD is finished.

Wondering if anyone can think of unanticipated problems that may arise in this process? Need to know any "Show stoppers", the way I have it in my head, I think it can be done!

[mahric]

I like this idea very very much, but I see a lot of obstacles that need to be overcome (it's an annoying habit I have):
- It might be good to add a level indicator to dungeons? No use to get players slaughtered in a dungeon designed for max lvl players while the part itself is just starting...
- How to we preserve inventory and skillpoints when starting a new dungeon?
- What are the requirements for a dungeon to be accepted?
- I know my 1st submission (wine merchants basement) can not be added because you only start with 1 character. You can't walk with a full party on a road, go to the inn and then suddenly only have 1 character.
- Some mods can only be played with a specific class (like some mods need a mage to finish). I'd hate to not allow mod, but do we force the player to have a specific class in the group?
- With the new BETA with possibility on custom UI, how are we going to handle additions to the UI?
- A mod might create a "drink gauge" besides the "food gauge" that's already there. It would be weird if it was there in 1 dungeon and was gone in the next.
- Another mod might show buffs, disable existing spells, or add new ones. That too would be weird if it just dissapeared.
- How are we going to make a dungeon integrated but yet playable on the side for players who don't want the whole integrated experience?

Please come with creative solutions, since I'd love to see the happen anyway!


About the seperate .dat file vs 1 .dat file:

Using seperate .dat files is good, because:
- Updating a single dungeon (maybe just a little bug) doesn't require a XX GB download.
- Only need to change the "hub world" once to connect a new dungeon. A developer of a mod can work seperate from there.

Using seperate .dat files is bad, because:
- Players still need to suscribe (or download) each individual mod
- Assets would be included in each mod, meaning they have to be downloaded multiple times by the player

[Asteroth]

These are very good points mahric. I'm afraid that there is no way you won't have "world-compatible" and "non-compatible" mods.
It would be sad if ALL of those problems are unfixable, that would mean only the most basic(in party mechanic+a few other things) mods would be eligible. But some of the are not likely solvable. Still that doesn't mean one can't forge ahead.

[mahric]

These are very good points mahric. I'm afraid that there is no way you won't have "world-compatible" and "non-compatible" mods.
It would be sad if ALL of those problems are unfixable, that would mean only the most basic(in party mechanic+a few other things) mods would be eligible. But some of the are not likely solvable. Still that doesn't mean one can't forge ahead.

I totally agree with that, but I'd like to know the "specs" so I can keep this into account when making new stuff.

And I've been thinking a bit about my own objections and there are ways to incorporate "incompatible" mods into the game world after all.

For example my mod "Wine Merchant's Basement" (that starts with 1 character) can be incorporated as follows:
- You enter an inn and talk with the innkeeper
- The innkeeper asks you if you want to hear a story of something that happened here a while ago
- If you agree you start the "Wine merchant's basement" mod. (I'll have to slightly modify the intro to make it appear as if the inn merchant is telling stuff, but that's neglectable)

Maybe we need a warning to players that it will start as mod with a different party-setup and/or rules, but besides that it's a totally valid and immersive way to include deviating mods.
So there is still hope!

[Arkos]

Asteroth, your corrupt wall tileset

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would be great for a dungeon in the “Red Hills” on the LoG map

Also, here are some more cool tilesets I recently came across--examples of endless creativity that could be showcased in dungeons around the LoG World:

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Now, imagine traveling from frozen dungeons in the North, to mine tileset dungeons in the mountains of Malan Vael, to the Dark Elf Temple, to the bleeding corrupt dungeons of the Red Hills, then across the Toll Islands to the southern tileset dungeons in the Xafi desert, collecting items or achievements in each dungeon required to enter Mount Grimrock’s sister peak's final dungeon isolated deep in the Dearthfang Ridges! What an experience that would be!

[msyblade]

With the current build of LoG,we couldn't use the separate .dat files idea, AH would actually need to spend time to add this functionality, just for this project ( Which I don't see happening). So we would be mashing .lua files together and debugging from there. Some of the individual problems mentioned:

Save states are not an issue if we are going to make one big dungeon.lua (but load times are!)

Intro and endings are not possible this way, so for the WMB example, would need to explain why the player must forge on alone (although xp issues arise),maybe dialogue/names would need to be worked on in all completed mods,
which is a pain. although I'm not positive you can enable champions after you disable them, I imagine you can.

Class requirement: This cannot be overcome, if a mage is required for a dungeon to be completed, it would have to be changed, or disallowed.If a project this large sees the light of day, it wouldn't make sense to pigeonhole the party setup out of the gate.

We could try to only use vanilla mods, with out complex scripting or assets that may conflict, but it undermines the entire premise. The idea of having our "signature" dungeons together, is the exciting part. For us to go make simple dungeons just for this project removes the inherent mood changes that make us all so different. Every part of the world would be the same. Variety is the spice of life!

level specific functions: Teleporters, scripts and such that refer to a specific floor would all have to be redone depending on where your mod ends up in the "world". I am willing to do this to HH2 for this project.

The CFD guys are dealing with many of these issues right now, but each of the floors were built with total compatability in mind, To avoid what we are talking about now. I'm interested to hear from them what roadblocks they encountered when compiling the floors together, maybe we can get a glimpse of the future.

I have no familiarity with the dungeon.lua file, haven't dissected it and looked at its parts. Not sure how "simple" it is. Again, the CFD could be an invaluable experience here.

With these limitations, we would be fortunate to have even 4 or 5 modders who would be willing to go back, re-work their completed dungeon, and make it available for use/alteration by others. But I would be happy to myself.

Really think this is the beginning of the "Grandaddy of all mods". If executed flawlessy, it could change the entire genre of dungeon crawlers, and heck yeah I wanna be part of that!

[Neikun]

I have an idea.
Should the community band together to create a series of mods for a player to play that link the parts of the northern realms together in a sort of "world" tour style gameplay, it can be handled with the import party, I think.
It would essentially be one party's journey through the realms. (Though there should be the option to drop and remove characters from the party in at least some of the mods)
When you finish one mod, it's ending basically describes the traveling from one place to the other. The next mod in sequence would have an intro that touches base on that same traveling.

The end of one mod would point the player to where they can play the next one.

[mahric]

I have an idea.
Should the community band together to create a series of mods for a player to play that link the parts of the northern realms together in a sort of "world" tour style gameplay, it can be handled with the import party, I think.
It would essentially be one party's journey through the realms. (Though there should be the option to drop and remove characters from the party in at least some of the mods)
When you finish one mod, it's ending basically describes the traveling from one place to the other. The next mod in sequence would have an intro that touches base on that same traveling.

The end of one mod would point the player to where they can play the next one.

It is not as exiting as a single seamless world, but it's something we could easaily do with the techniques we have today. And it takes away a lot of hurdles.
Just make it a story with several chapters, where each chapter is a new mod.

[msyblade]

Now we just gotta figger out how to export the parties inventory, and import it to the next mod. Or persistent save states. In fact, with persistent save states, most problems we are tossing around, would be solved. My idea is this:

A simple "overworld" map, dirt paths, sign markers, and maybe a forest or a stream. A list of what mods will need to be downloaded to complete the "Overworld" module.This list is repeated at download, in the readme, in the Intro, and through lore clues around the land. Maybe even a modified WMB that has a corpse with a scroll mentioning the wonders of the Mine of Malan Vael. When you follow the signposts to the dungeon you want to romp around in, you get to a door (in a mountain, on a cave, on a stone wall, in the ground etc. . .) and click it. HudPrint "Are you sure you want to enter "The Master Key"? "You may not be able to exit until completion!".
Click it and it exports your party with inventory, checks for the master key.dat, and if not found hudPrint "You need to download [The Master Key] available at Grimrock Nexus". "www.blahblahblah" and the player turns around and moves on,
or if the game finds the master key, it exports the party (with a pre- enter backup), and loads the new .dat with intro and all. Auto Import, and you try to play through it. Then auto export at completion, or player can exitdungeon, losing all progress, and go back to the entrance save in the overworld. You will end up with "that damn dungeon I've tried twice, but STILL need to beat!""I'll come back later". Of course there are exp. balance issues, but that's a conversation for another day!