[Map for CFD2012 ] "The Descent" -File and discussion thread

[Ancylus]

I found the time to play the latest version. Some notes:

SpoilerShow

I had to cheat and look at comments here to get past the torch and the skeleton puzzle. There's a logic to it, but I rather suspect I'd have never figured it out on my own (I'm still not used to thinking of catacombs as alcoves). I thought the note was a hint for where to look for the key.

Serpent bracer: I think it's fine to keep this trap deadly, but triggering it when a wrong item is placed in the alcove feels weird. Maybe trigger it if neither the bracer nor the skull are in the alcove?

There are several places where light leaks through secret doors, but the shadows of the crowerns at the lower level are particularly noticeable.

Found the illusionary wall based on the tapestry not tearing (actually not this time, but in an earlier playthrough). Even though I knew about the fireball room from previous comments, I still got killed a few times. Eventually got through by luck (moving along the north wall to stay far away from the heads to get more time to dodge).

BUG: Rainbow puzzle: if you take and replace a gem after solving the puzzle, the game crashes with message "#script_entity_3:19: duplicated entity id".

I had no idea what I did to open the secret with the tome inside until I read comments here. Not a serious issue, of course, but it's a bit confusing to be rewarded with a secret for walking somewhere in plain sight.

BUG: I pressed the button to open the gate to the central room. I killed the skeletons, then stepped in and the game crashed without error message, log says "#script_entity_10:4: attempt to index global 'pressure_plate_hidden_56' (a nil value)".

I do like the level overall, now that I've managed to get (mostly) through it. Apart from the crashes and the place where I got stuck, the issues I've raised are fairly minor.

[SpiderFighter]

Hi Ancylus! Thanks for diving into the deep end once again, in spite of my seemingly continual attempts to push your head beneath the surface.

SpoilerShow

[

I found the time to play the latest version. Some notes:
I had to cheat and look at comments here to get past the torch and the skeleton puzzle. There's a logic to it, but I rather suspect I'd have never figured it out on my own (I'm still not used to thinking of catacombs as alcoves). I thought the note was a hint for where to look for the key.

I was hoping, as there is a catacomb skeleton holding a key in the very same room, that people would more easily get this. Maybe I need to tweak the wording of the note a bit? Or scrap it altogether? It was a pretty quickly tossed-off idea.

Serpent bracer: I think it's fine to keep this trap deadly, but triggering it when a wrong item is placed in the alcove feels weird. Maybe trigger it if neither the bracer nor the skull are in the alcove?

You know by now how much I respect and value your (and everyone's!) opinion here, and I've certainly been swayed about things even after posting my own opinion (even in this room already, with the exit levers), but this one I'm not sure I agree with. The player walks into this room, looking at the teeth of two ogres (while the player is only level three or four), understands that it's not mandatory to finish this room to progress, and reads a sign on the wall (between the ogres) that states, in part: "A soul for our prize you'll give." Not a sword. Not mole jerky. It's a very specific puzzle (barely a puzzle, actually, it's an instruction). So, in my opinion, if you ain't got a soul, you shouldn't be mucking about with the ogres! It would feel weird (to me) if something didn't happen if I tried to give the beasties something they didn't ask for. Now, I don't like cheap deaths, but this one doesn't feel cheap to me; it feels like there is plenty of warning given. As always, however, I respect your opinion (and thank you for giving it to me!!) and I am open to further discussion, as I certainly don't wish to alienate players. This seems to me like maybe we've gotten too comfortable with today's games, though. You know if this were truly a Dungeon Master-era game, there'd be no quarter given in this room.

(I hope you don't think I'm angry/frustrated/ungrateful, etc. Tone is impossible to convey in textual conversation, so please know that I really am grateful and definitely interested in hearing your opinion!!!!)

There are several places where light leaks through secret doors, but the shadows of the crowerns at the lower level are particularly noticeable.

Oh, bah. Someone mentioned this earlier, and I went into the room, scouring it for off shadows and weird lighting, and I couldn't find any. This time, I'll go back in and switch all my graphics options to see if I can find it. Because so much of this map is made up of secret doors, it's been a real bear to place lighting where it doesn't leak through something (which is why it's such a mix of ceiling lanterns, wall lanterns, and torches). Thanks for letting me know!

Found the illusionary wall based on the tapestry not tearing (actually not this time, but in an earlier playthrough). Even though I knew about the fireball room from previous comments, I still got killed a few times. Eventually got through by luck (moving along the north wall to stay far away from the heads to get more time to dodge).

I'm not sure if this is a question or a comment? There are two clues about how to traverse this room: The note ("It is so important to see the path
that lies before us all.") and the floor of the room itself, where the player can see a specific path of dirt. I'm not sure what else I can do, but I'm open to suggestions if you think the clues aren't as obvious as they should be. Maybe I should move the corpse with the note into the archer room to help the player more easily make the connection? I absolutely want things to be fair.

BUG: Rainbow puzzle: if you take and replace a gem after solving the puzzle, the game crashes with message "#script_entity_3:19: duplicated entity id".

Ooh, big one. Thanks. I'm sure that's due to the fact that I absolutely suck at scripting.

I had no idea what I did to open the secret with the tome inside until I read comments here. Not a serious issue, of course, but it's a bit confusing to be rewarded with a secret for walking somewhere in plain sight.

That's dead, so no worries (as is the telemaze, yay!!). I would never do that in a map that was a standalone; it was only done that way because we were discouraged from putting Tomes in at all, and I wanted to make sure it was impossible to know about, but a nice treat if a player happened upon it (I shouldn't have linked it as an actual secret, and likely would have deleted the secret plate, etc, had it stayed as-is). I'm still going to have it in there, but now you'll know why you receive it (if you can get it).

BUG: I pressed the button to open the gate to the central room. I killed the skeletons, then stepped in and the game crashed without error message, log says "#script_entity_10:4: attempt to index global 'pressure_plate_hidden_56' (a nil value)".

Yeah, JW found that earlier, and I thought I knew what had happened, but there really is a plate_56 so I need to tear through the code and find out what's going on. Right before I uploaded this version, I did an exported playthrough to the end (which is where you are, btw) but then added a simple script to delete several plates, one of which is 56. It has to be in that script, as everything else worked beautifully. I'm sorry you had to experience yet another crash (I'm just happy you made it through The Hub without a crash, so at least you know I really can do some things without crashing!).

I do like the level overall, now that I've managed to get (mostly) through it. Apart from the crashes and the place where I got stuck, the issues I've raised are fairly minor.

You're very gracious and forgiving. Fairly minor! Next version will set your hard drive on fire.

Honestly, I don't know how you guys keep playing it at this point. If that were me, I'd be panicked every time I took a step, afraid that the blasted thing would crash again.

Thanks again. You don't know how badly I just want to scratch this whole thing, particularly because a lot of these bugs are things I just can't seem to replicate. I don't think I've ever made a map that required this much tweaking.I really appreciate everything you've done, and shared with me.

[EDIT: You and John have played this map so many times, that I just want to throw in a secret shortcut so that when you reach it in the Frungeon, you can just go around the dang thing. ]

[Xanathar]

I'm, about to start my run on what's becoming my favorite dungeon right now (I doubt to be able to finish today though).

Do you need me to playtest with a balanced party or can I import an overpowered one to go faster ?

[Xanathar]

SpoilerShow

At the first room at the end of the teleport maze, a pillar where the small herders are, is flickering. I can see it flicker if I stand at 9 5 2 1.

[Ancylus]

SpoilerShow

I was hoping, as there is a catacomb skeleton holding a key in the very same room, that people would more easily get this. Maybe I need to tweak the wording of the note a bit? Or scrap it altogether? It was a pretty quickly tossed-off idea.

As I said, the key actually threw me off, since I thought the note was referring to it. Having something else in the catacombs to show people that they are alcoves is in principle a good idea, though. I'm not quite sure how to tweak the puzzle to make it clearer, have to consider it a bit.

You know by now how much I respect and value your (and everyone's!) opinion here, and I've certainly been swayed about things even after posting my own opinion (even in this room already, with the exit levers), but this one I'm not sure I agree with. The player walks into this room, looking at the teeth of two ogres (while the player is only level three or four), understands that it's not mandatory to finish this room to progress, and reads a sign on the wall (between the ogres) that states, in part: "A soul for our prize you'll give." Not a sword. Not mole jerky. It's a very specific puzzle (barely a puzzle, actually, it's an instruction). So, in my opinion, if you ain't got a soul, you shouldn't be mucking about with the ogres! It would feel weird (to me) if something didn't happen if I tried to give the beasties something they didn't ask for. Now, I don't like cheap deaths, but this one doesn't feel cheap to me; it feels like there is plenty of warning given. As always, however, I respect your opinion (and thank you for giving it to me!!) and I am open to further discussion, as I certainly don't wish to alienate players. This seems to me like maybe we've gotten too comfortable with today's games, though. You know if this were truly a Dungeon Master-era game, there'd be no quarter given in this room.

Don't get me wrong, I don't object to the deadliness of the puzzle at all, since it's voluntary and has a very fair warning. It's just the specific triggering condition that seems strange to me: I would expect the trap to trigger if I take the bracer without having placed the right item into the alcove, while other items would be ignored entirely. That said, this really isn't a big deal, just something that felt a little bit off.

I'm not sure if this is a question or a comment? There are two clues about how to traverse this room: The note ("It is so important to see the path
that lies before us all.") and the floor of the room itself, where the player can see a specific path of dirt. I'm not sure what else I can do, but I'm open to suggestions if you think the clues aren't as obvious as they should be. Maybe I should move the corpse with the note into the archer room to help the player more easily make the connection? I absolutely want things to be fair.

Comment, really. I got through in fairly short order overall and JW apparently figured it out pretty quickly, so I'd say it's working fine.

[SpiderFighter]

SpoilerShow

I was hoping, as there is a catacomb skeleton holding a key in the very same room, that people would more easily get this. Maybe I need to tweak the wording of the note a bit? Or scrap it altogether? It was a pretty quickly tossed-off idea.

As I said, the key actually threw me off, since I thought the note was referring to it. Having something else in the catacombs to show people that they are alcoves is in principle a good idea, though. I'm not quite sure how to tweak the puzzle to make it clearer, have to consider it a bit.

Ohhh, I see what you're saying now, gotcha. How about if I change the text to:
"As I lay me down to rest,
Give me this, close to my chest,
So I'll see the way before,
Illuminating Evermore."

Or: Give me this upon my chest?

][Re: Serpent Bracer Room]Don't get me wrong, I don't object to the deadliness of the puzzle at all, since it's voluntary and has a very fair warning. It's just the specific triggering condition that seems strange to me: I would expect the trap to trigger if I take the bracer without having placed the right item into the alcove, while other items would be ignored entirely. That said, this really isn't a big deal, just something that felt a little bit off.

I see what you're saying now. That's probably just a limitation of my scripting abilities. I did notice just now (while playing through to check lighting) that the room doesn't reset if you put the bracer back, and that seems unfair to me. I can take a look at this, but it's probably just beyond me right now. My eyes are bigger than my stomach when it comes to scripting, if that makes any sense.

I'm not sure if this is a question or a comment? There are two clues about how to traverse this room: The note ("It is so important to see the path
that lies before us all.") and the floor of the room itself, where the player can see a specific path of dirt. I'm not sure what else I can do, but I'm open to suggestions if you think the clues aren't as obvious as they should be. Maybe I should move the corpse with the note into the archer room to help the player more easily make the connection? I absolutely want things to be fair.

Comment, really. I got through in fairly short order overall and JW apparently figured it out pretty quickly, so I'd say it's working fine.

Ok, I just want all things to be fair. Nothing sucks worse than to have some puzzle with an obscure solution that nobody could possible figure out unaided.

Next dungeon I make? No scripts. May be boring, but it won't crash.

[EDIT: Just found those crowern shadows. It's because I didn't have all my graphics options on high. You're right; those are awful. Thanks again.]

[Xanathar]

Other flickering pillar: 14 10 0 1.

Important bug: Last room, killed last skeleton troop, stepped in and crashed: attempt to index global 'pressure_plate_hidden_56' (a nil value).
Does this everytime, so I can't go on further.

Save game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3w2q9ar7dhhj2 ... game71.sav

BTW, if you are interested in how long it does take to speed-run it, I'm at 26 minutes with 5 secrets out of 6.

SpoilerShow

I don't know if I could solve the skeleton + torch puzzle on my own without reading it here though.

Crash details:

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#script_entity_10:4: attempt to index global 'pressure_plate_hidden_56' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
#script_entity_10:4: in function <#script_entity_10:1>
[string "ScriptEntity.lua"]: in function 'onMessageReceived'
[string "MessageSystem.lua"]: in function 'sendMessageToEntity'
[string "MessageSystem.lua"]: in function 'broadcastMessage'
[string "TriggerEvents.lua"]: in function 'fire'
[string "PressurePlate.lua"]: in function 'pressed'
[string "PressurePlate.lua"]: in function 'updateState'
[string "PressurePlate.lua"]: in main chunk
[string "MessageSystem.lua"]: in function 'sendMessage'
[string "Map.lua"]: in function 'moveEntity'
[string "Party.lua"]: in function 'setPosition'
[string "Party.lua"]: in function 'update'
[string "Party.lua"]: in function 'update'
[string "Map.lua"]: in function 'updateEntities'
[string "Dungeon.lua"]: in function 'updateLevels'
[string "GameMode.lua"]: in function 'update'
[string "Grimrock.lua"]: in function 'display'
[string "Grimrock.lua"]: in main chunk

OS Version 6.2

OEM ID: 0
Number of processors: 8
Page size: 4096
Processor type: 586

Total memory: 8073 MB
Free memory: 5705 MB

Display device 0:
Device name: \\.\DISPLAY1
Device string: Intel(R) HD Graphics 3000
State flags: 00000005

Display device 1:
Device name: \\.\DISPLAY2
Device string: Intel(R) HD Graphics 3000
State flags: 08000000

Display device 2:
Device name: \\.\DISPLAY3
Device string: NVIDIA NVS 4200M
State flags: 00000000

Display device 3:
Device name: \\.\DISPLAY4
Device string: NVIDIA NVS 4200M
State flags: 00000000

[SpiderFighter]

I'm, about to start my run on what's becoming my favorite dungeon right now (I doubt to be able to finish today though).

Do you need me to playtest with a balanced party or can I import an overpowered one to go faster ?

Thanks for the clipping issue; I'm sorry, my router has been randomly shutting down on me, so I have to wait for the connection to return.
Overpowered is fine, I think everyone is fine with the balance for the intended level. Just DO NOT go into the final room (with the red tele), you WILL crash. Very ugly. You can lure them out though if you want to.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm really not sure how you're not all sick of it by now!

[EDIT: Bah. I see I was too late! Nice time, btw ]

[SpiderFighter]

I don't know if I could solve the skeleton + torch puzzle on my own without reading it here though.

How about if the text read:

"As I lay me down to rest,
Give me this, close to my chest,
So I'll see the way before,
Illuminating Evermore."

Or: Give me this upon my chest?

Do you think that might have made a difference?

[Xanathar]

I probably could have solved it.. it's difficult to tell, because if you know the solution before the problem, then you start thinking "could I do it without knowing" ? Probably yes, so I wouldn't worry.

So, I wouldn't touch the text based on my feedback