[Map for CFD2012 ] "The Descent" -File and discussion thread

[JohnWordsworth]

@Xanathar: Agreed - that's how I originally interpreted it!

[SpiderFighter]

Lol...you're too quick, John! I haven't even gotten to the spider glitch yet.
As usual, my replies are below your comments.

SpoilerShow

Hi John,

Some more bad news I'm afraid!

- Threw shuriken in room (perhaps it should teleport back outside somewhere incase it was a more valuable item like a quest item?).

Idunno...I'm kinda thinking if the player is foolish enough to throw his knoffler mace in there when there are all these rocks lying about (remember, there are two levels before this one, too), then he deserves to have to reload!

- Walked through wall in back left corner of the archer pit room. One way Illusionary Wall (spotted on map) - Intentional? Note that you can't destroy the tapestry on the backside of that call but you can the front. Perhaps that wall should look different (only one without a hanging tapestry perhaps, or perhaps you can't destroy the tapestry from either side?).

This is completely intentional. Most people don't look at the map right away because it's such an obvious room. In a couple of cases, the player not being able to actually cut the tapestry is what made them realize it was an illusory wall (I have noticed that splashback from missiles/spells will cut it though(on either side), but that's not intentional and doesn't happen every time). My personal point of view about illsory walls is : if you can't see them on the map, then you might as well put a door there. I think making that one wall different from all the others would be too obvious, as that's the first place I would head, were I playing it for the first time. If it's something you really feel strongly about, then I'll be happy to look at it again, but I kind of like it this way (ultimately, though, there is NO point to mapping for yourself if no one else enjoys it, so I'm all about changing things that aren't working, regardless of how I might feel).

- Tried to kite Crowern, lots of fireballs -> Game Over.

- Reloaded, killed Crowern standing still. Stepped forward to get Gem. Fireballs started. Ran across room to press button (found loads). Lots of Fireballs - Game Over.

- Reloaded, figured out puzzle. Got blue gem and restricted key. Could go back through Illusionary wall again. Pits frozen closed. Nice surprise . Is this a problem if I hadn't already jumped down and got the jewels from the Crowerns?

YAY! You're the first person to actually stop and figure it out (either from the "follow the path" note, or by looking around the room?)! In fact, I actually upped a couple of them to greater fireballs because everyone was just plowing right through them, and I wanted it to be an Indiana Jones moment. Kudos to you!

Oh, and it's not a problem if you don't jump down these pits. When you get to the 4-alcove puzzle later on, any combination of things will open those pits, which will lead back to the room below so the player can get the items he needs to solve the puzzle. The combat is just a little more difficult, but very doable.

- Hungry for death room next. Killed herder. Saved Game. Took serpent bracer. Replaced with skull. Door opened but Ogres were in the way -> Death!

- Desperate for Treasure (Bracers)… Reloaded.

Each of these scenarios was played through from a fresh load of the Serpent Room...
1. Place sword in alcove (serpent bracers still there). Ogre trap triggered.
2. Place skull in alcove (serpent bracers still there) -> Best result (got bracers, ogres still trapped).
3. Took bracers and replaced with skull -> Too slow, Ogres released! Led down corridor to murder.
4. Place skull in alcove (serpent bracers still there) -> Took serpent bracers (good result) -> Placed sword in altar -> Triggered Trap with no way out. (BUG??)

Working as intended. In rooms that are obviously ominous (fireball room, this one), then I don't feel bad about making a penalty a bit more harsh than usual (sort of. In a room that's required for progression, like the fireball room, I will never insta-kill a player. I'll poke him to let him know he's not on the right trail. The serpent bracer room is optional, however, and it's such an obvious Uh-Oh room, that I don't feel bad if the player hasn't saved. Maybe that's wrong, Idunno.). Three things I'm wondering:
1. I understand trying the sword once, but why did you keep trying it? Is the clue too vague/misleading? If so, I definitely need to fix this.
2. How in the world did you lead them down the corridor (nicely done, btw!!)? The door to the hall should have shut, locking you in with them. Most interesting. (EDIT: I read it too fast; I see now.)
3. Why would any sane player put something else on the alcove once they've successfully received the bracers (and obviously completed the puzzle)? I actually did that during tests, and laughed my butt off...because I deserved to get a beating for doing it!
I've tested this a few times thusly: 1) put the skull in the alcove and grab the bracer 2) put the skull in Contar's hand, grab the bracer, put the skull on the alcove (before the doors completely open behind you). Both worked, so I'm not sure this room isn't working. As always though, if you feel otherwise, I'll definitely listen!

- Killed 2 spiders and herder. Tome of Health given to Minotaur (he was angry at me because I took his shiny skull away earlier - this cheered him up).

You must have pressed every damned button in that telemaze. Nicely done! Komag did it too, but I've never actually seen the Tome of Health in the level. I'll have to come up with a different way to achieve it now that I've 86'ed the telemaze. Oh, and the skull shouldn't have affected your mino's stats any (at least, it hasn't in my exported game).

- Killed 8 Skeletons in an epic display of manliness. Stepped into skeleton room INSTANT CRASH (no error popup). However, there was an error log (attached).

Reloaded.

- Opened skeleton door and ran in room before killing the 8 skeletons. CRASH TO DESKTOP.

Reloaded.

- Killed 8 skeletons. Rested ages (to see if it helped). Entered room - CRASH again.
Crash Report

-

What?? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's it. I'm deleting the blasted thing and doing a level one map with ten or so simple snail rooms and no puzzles.

- Barring the little hiccups though it's a top quality dungeon - I've been really enjoying it. A nice mix of thinking and fighting (which I like).

Hmmm...hardly "little hiccups!" I can't believe I thought this thing was wrapped up earlier. 11 VERSIONS AGO.

Thanks again, John. I'll get on the spider and skelly crashes. The latter one I think I understand. The first one, I'm still not sure yet.
Wow...that took like 45 minutes to write!

[SpiderFighter]

Good ideas on the telemaze, and I definitelty understand the interpretation of "Make sure I'm facing south beofre I press it." You guys need to understand though: I've hated that puzzle since I was halfway through making it, so I have no problems killing it. The problem with creating a different clue is that it suffers from the the same problem as with the original clues: They're open to interpretation. At some point, someone is going to shut this map off because they don't understand the puzzle and keep failing, and I don't want that to happen. You're right when you say that the player has to fail many times in order to succeed, and I hate that style of gameplay, because it's no fun. (Originally, there was a clue about "the Genesis" of the puzzle and the solution was to press them like ABACAB, but that was lost on people too. Guess I'm too old )

I'm really appreciating all the input.

[SpiderFighter]

Regarding the Invincible Spider you found:
This is, unfortunately, a known issue that seems to happen when the game loses track of a monster. I'm not sure why it applies in this case, though? The only tele on that tile is (A) on a different level, and (B)triggered by the Party only [EDIT: Also, it's removed as soon as the player steps on the plate that spawns the ogre]. Plus, you clearly killed it, and there are no other spiders in that section of the map (and none on the floors below).

(See also: Possible bug found! - Invincible monster and Killing spawned monsters)

Short answer: I'm not sure there's any way around this, except to lock the player in with the spider to do battle (the room that triggers the ogre is actually outside theat portcullis, not inside).

I'll post a link to this post from the "Possible Bug Found" one above, and upload the video to my dropbox (with your permission), so the devs can look at it.

[EDIT again: I just tried to replicate it: I lured the ogre onto the pit, opened it, then lured the spider onto the pit, killed it, then jumped down into pit to find...no spider. So...? Maybe it's better to just be safe and trap the player in with the spider. Weird. Interesting, but weird.]

[JohnWordsworth]

Feedback and thoughts. I definitely agree with something I think you mentioned above, which should be written into the mantra for modders... "non-easy puzzles should be optional / for treasure". Players that hit a puzzle that they spend more than 10-15 minutes on and cannot pass (but HAVE to pass) will simply go find a different mod (I expect this is 2-4 minutes for a Call of Duty type game!). Same logic when GMing a D&D game (although they'll just get angry / bored).

SpoilerShow

I dunno...I'm kinda thinking if the player is foolish enough to throw his knoffler mace in there when there are all these rocks lying about (remember, there are two levels before this one, too), then he deserves to have to reload!

Re: Shuriken Puzzle: I would agree if the consequences were immediately obvious, but if he throws a key in there by accident which is needed 3 levels later (say). Then his saves will all be polluted and he'll have to start the whole dungeon again. More realistically, the player simply won't come back to the Mod! I know it's unlikely, but SOMEONE will do it... :p. I say, when the connector in that room opens the exit, it should also fire up an item teleporter to clear that box room just in case.

Re: Illusionary Wall: Cool, I like the illusionary wall bit, I was just worried that if someone were mapping the room out themselves they would never find it. I don't know if you could so something 'subtly' different on that wall? Even if the wall looks different, people probably won't think to just try walking through it (as there are no illusionary walls in the main game it's not a mechanic that will be used too).

Re: Fireball Room: Haha, I didn't actually notice the note - but I noticed that a part of the floor was different so it seemed like a logical thing to try .

Re: Pits and Gems: Cool - always thinking about the boundary conditions to ensure that the player can't get stuck. Good to hear you've got that wrapped up and safe!

Re: Bracer Room

- I kept trying the swords to see if I could break it :p. I try everything when playtesting!

- Again, in interests of making it so that the player can't end up in a position where they've completely broken the game (no matter how unlikely SOMEONE will do it), I think perhaps you should put a button at the back of the Ogre Cages to open the entrance again. Someone will manage to get in there with a high-level party, break the room, kill the ogres and save it... If they can't get out - they have to restart the mod. It's incredibly unlikely someone can kill 2 Ogres in that confined space, but hey - no harm in adding a button just to make sure that they don't get stuck if they decide that their party that's been through 10 other dungeons is up to it.

Re: Crash / 11 Versions: Hehe - you're very close now though. Many modders would just have pushed it out the door, but these iterations are what make the end-user experience brilliant and make for one of those finely polished mods that users remember for their quality . And it is quality - it's great to play through.

Shame about the spider problem. You could always just check the space under the pit for a spider when you fall down the pit (pressure plate?) and if there is a spider there just destroy it. I know it's unlikely to happen, but it happened to me in 'general play' and it happened *every time* (it was 100% repeatable).

More than welcome to share the video with anyone/everyone!

[Xanathar]

Originally, there was a clue about "the Genesis" of the puzzle and the solution was to press them like ABACAB, but that was lost on people too. Guess I'm too old

Either you aren't or I am too. It was the first thing I thought when you mentioned the puzzle solution in letters!

[SpiderFighter]

Back again!

SpoilerShow

I definitely agree with something I think you mentioned above, which should be written into the mantra for modders... "non-easy puzzles should be optional / for treasure". Players that hit a puzzle that they spend more than 10-15 minutes on and cannot pass (but HAVE to pass) will simply go find a different mod

Eep. You mean like my skeleton looking for eternal light?

Re: Shuriken Puzzle: I would agree if the consequences were immediately obvious, but if he throws a key in there by accident which is needed 3 levels later (say). Then his saves will all be polluted and he'll have to start the whole dungeon again. More realistically, the player simply won't come back to the Mod! I know it's unlikely, but SOMEONE will do it... :p. I say, when the connector in that room opens the exit, it should also fire up an item teleporter to clear that box room just in case.

Well said, and you're absolutely right. I'll fix that.

Re: Illusionary Wall: Cool, I like the illusionary wall bit, I was just worried that if someone were mapping the room out themselves they would never find it. I don't know if you could so something 'subtly' different on that wall? Even if the wall looks different, people probably won't think to just try walking through it (as there are no illusionary walls in the main game it's not a mechanic that will be used too).

Hmm...I always figured that the fact that the gobelin isn't cuttable would lead them to realize something was off about this wall. However, I wasn't thinking about the "old school" players (which I should have, as that's how I played the original game); if the gobelin is cut during the battle with the archers, then they won't even try to cut it, hence they'll never realize something is off. I'll have to think about this one a bit. Thanks for making me look at it again. This is exactly why testing is completely invaluable.

Re: Fireball Room: Haha, I didn't actually notice the note - but I noticed that a part of the floor was different so it seemed like a logical thing to try .

Nicely done!! I think the player and the designer are a team: one can't exist without the other. It's very fulfilling to hear when someone has had that "a-ha" moment!

Re: Pits and Gems: Cool - always thinking about the boundary conditions to ensure that the player can't get stuck. Good to hear you've got that wrapped up and safe!

Me too...I'm really huge on not getting the player stuck. It was actually a happy circumstance that the 4-alcove puzzle room lined up perfectly with the crowern room below; that's why I chose to put those 4 pits where they are (instead of in another area of the room). Serendipity, baby! Gotta love it!

Re: Bracer Room

- I kept trying the swords to see if I could break it :p. I try everything when playtesting!

Awesome! lol The map is better because you do!

- Again, in interests of making it so that the player can't end up in a position where they've completely broken the game (no matter how unlikely SOMEONE will do it), I think perhaps you should put a button at the back of the Ogre Cages to open the entrance again. Someone will manage to get in there with a high-level party, break the room, kill the ogres and save it... If they can't get out - they have to restart the mod. It's incredibly unlikely someone can kill 2 Ogres in that confined space, but hey - no harm in adding a button just to make sure that they don't get stuck if they decide that their party that's been through 10 other dungeons is up to it.

EXCELLENT point. I actually contemplated doing it, and then thought, "well, that's dumb." But no, it isn't, and that's the reason why! I think what I'll do is have one lever behind each ogre, just to cut down on the chance of having a lowbie re-open the door and lead the beasties down the hall.

And it is quality - it's great to play through.

I really appreciate that! I really strive for balanced play.

More than welcome to share the video with anyone/everyone!

Thanks!

Originally, there was a clue about "the Genesis" of the puzzle and the solution was to press them like ABACAB, but that was lost on people too. Guess I'm too old

Either you aren't or I am too. It was the first thing I thought when you mentioned the puzzle solution in letters!

Now THAT'S funny!!

[JohnWordsworth]

Only one or two little responses this time!

SpoilerShow

Eep. You mean like my skeleton looking for eternal light?

Haha, I gave up on that quicker than I normally would as I had my playtester cap on and thought it was a bug :p. Alternatively, you could trap them in that room completely until they figure it out (it reduces the problem space of 'where can I do things') and make the only way out of that chamber through the Herder instead of having the door close behind them and then re-open for the Skeletons (although, that's also quite nice).

Hmm...I always figured that the fact that the gobelin isn;t cuttable would make them realize something was off about this wall. However, I wasn't thinking about the "old school" players (which I should have, as that's how I played the original game); if the gobelin is cut during the battle with the archers, then they won't even try to cut it, hence they'll never realize something is off. I'll have to think about this one a bit. Thanks for making me look at it again. This is exactly why testing is completely invaluable.

Ahh - IIRC I think you can cut it from one side, just not the other. At least, this is what I remember - you can't cut it from INSIDE the fireball room, but you can cut it down from within the Skeleton room. If you couldn't cut it from inside the skeleton room, that would be perfect (when I realised there was no obvious way forward I went around the room and cut them all down - so would've found that strange, but I'm sure in my run through - I did manage to cut that one down).

Sorry for throwing more and more work your way! :p

[SpiderFighter]

SpoilerShow

Only one or two little responses this time!

Eep. You mean like my skeleton looking for eternal light?

Haha, I gave up on that quicker than I normally would as I had my playtester cap on and thought it was a bug :p. Alternatively, you could trap them in that room completely until they figure it out (it reduces the problem space of 'where can I do things') and make the only way out of that chamber through the Herder instead of having the door close behind them and then re-open for the Skeletons (although, that's also quite nice).

Thanks, that's YOUR doing, though. I noticed in one of your videos that the spider that emerges from a hidden area was twitchy, and it was because you were meeting the skeleton patrol out in the hall and killing it before it got to the hidden plate inside the room and turned off the blockers in the hall! So, the simple solution was to lock you inside the damned room so you couldn't disrupt all my well-thought plans!
Because there is a torch close by and because there isn't a huge area open at that point, I think I'm going to leave it as-is for now.

Ahh - IIRC I think you can cut it from one side, just not the other. At least, this is what I remember - you can't cut it from INSIDE the fireball room, but you can cut it down from within the Skeleton room. If you couldn't cut it from inside the skeleton room, that would be perfect (when I realised there was no obvious way forward I went around the room and cut them all down - so would've found that strange, but I'm sure in my run through - I did manage to cut that one down).

I can't seem t from either side, unless it's collateral damage (splashback). Weird. Well, in any case, something else needs to be done here, as I don't want that to happen to anyone else.

Sorry for throwing more and more work your way! :p

Nonsense!! I'm grateful you still want to keep testing.

[SpiderFighter]

And there it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VtqHFCl ... tube_gdata