CFD 2012: Discussion thread (Submission Thread Link Within)

[SpiderFighter]

Shopkeeper: I'm rather against including one. At the very least it would require pretty strict rules on what kinds of items may be sold, how much currency should be found at each level, and so on. Keeping the level progression sensible is difficult enough as it is, and an extra source of items would only make it more so.

Using the scrolls to return to the hub would make it too easy to purchase items that may make progression possible in ways the designer didn't intend. If the shopkeeper doesn't sell items or passcodes, then I have no issues with using scrolls to return.

[Edsploration]

XP rewards
As for brodie's dungeon and xp concerns overall... we could potentially scale back xp rewards for floors or the dungeon as a whole and leave everything but xp rewards untouched. Like if I were to submit my dungeon as a t1 entrant, I'd clone all my monsters and set their xp rewards to about 1/2 to 1/4 of the original values.

I'm all for this solution!

it's easy enough for someone to run back to the start point and burn the scroll to go back up to the hub (feels funny typing The Hub, since that's my dungeon ), particularly if the entrance is in a central point to the rest of the map. How about if we divide the number of included levels by, say, 33.3% and include only that many? They'd still be dispersed throughout, but that way the player would be forced to conserve a bit as they go through the entire Frungeon (my truncated term for Frankendungeon ) instead of using them as a get out of jail free card of sorts.

You mean divided by 3?
"Running back to the entrance" is functionally about the same as "running back to a save point". But you're probably right that 1 scroll every 2-3 floors is better. Maybe we can restrict them to only one for each even tier.

I'd be afraid of yellow and orange being too similar. Besides, red and green fit the idea of this being a Christmas present to the community. And I've already added them to mine, and I'm just being lazy. lol

I think whatever works for the majority will be done, and that sounds like green and red. By the way, the particle effects for each is a little different. Down/red stars fall quickly, green/up stars float much like the default teleporter, and purple/hub-return teleporters have fast-rising stars. Their appearance needs a bit of tweaking still to look nicer.

The teleporters must be the same objects, named "level_entry_teleporter" and "level_exit_teleporter" for consistency and allowing the Scrolls of Return to work, which is why I supplied first drafts of those in the tools file. They will not work with any other type of teleporters. During stitching we can replace any teleporter with the right type.

More on the Shopkeeper topic:
This could be a good system for its own dungeon, but I don't think it works for the CFD Project. This project should stand on the merits of each submission individually, not by overarching systems. And it would be a ton of overhead for each designer to consider a trade system. Choosing balanced loot to include in your submission tier is hard enough as it is.

Ok, the consensus seems to favor teleporters, so we'll go with those. Sorry if I've stuck too long to this one issue, just wanted to present my point of view.

No worries. It's a community-driven project! These things should be hashed out!
My current stance is:

1. List teleporters in the rules.
2. If a designer uses a staircase anyway, a breather hallway (as HaunterV suggested) should be inserted. No reason to hold a submission back over a minor issue.
   So basically anything would be accepted, but I want to encourage one system to make linking relatively painless, and keep Scrolls of Return functional.

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Well... I guess HaunterV and I will draft up another set of rules/guidelines/how-to-submit based on current ideas... and soon if we run out of things to discuss, we can launch officially in a new thread, and start accepting submissions.

At least, the tools I wanted to write to make this project manageable are pretty much good to go:

• SL's tabulated in spreadsheets.
• Custom Dungeon Analyzer to count up dungeon contents (equipment support would be nice... we'll see...)
• Progression/unlock and hub Scroll of Return system to fit with HaunterV's hub floor system.

[Brodie301]

Thanks for the suggestions Edsploration. Spider gave me a couple of good tips as well in PMs.
I have refined a couple of things and and working on some more.
The Scavenger room is one of the things me and Spider discussed, it feels like just a big nothing after a lot of thrill.
Have scrapped the Hall of Deadends as well in place of a refuge if you catch my drift.
I will tie secrets into the good ones.

As for the torches that's a tough one. I tried to use them dynamically as to set the chilling atmosphere of the original. I think it plays a huge part in it. The way some of the shadow play while approaching or entering some of those rooms I think is awesome. I suggested to play with no torch in hand. But I also agree there are a lot that are just that "light" And could maybe be used for more than that.

Also after reading a bunch of the 3 of y'all's post I still have work to do since my keys aren't cloned and so on and so forth but I did the whole dungeon with the editor and only 1 script in that lower level alcove to change gem color more or less.

But it's a WIP and I will be posting the new version sometime next week.

Keep it going Franken2012!!!

[Brodie301]

Red & green +1
Shops -1

Also, I like the breather room and my suggestion for it is kinda a five straight block level. Teleporter on both ends. Old exit on left and new entrance on right. The alcove with the Next Level description and Contributers name on the middle right and the Home scroll every 3-5 levels in an alcove on the middle left.
I wouldn't want a room I have to roam around.

And a question: How many levels are we thinking? Where is this monster gonna exist for download when finished?

[Edsploration]

Regarding size
Small CFD: 11 tiers. One dungeon is submitted per tier. 1.2 floors per submission. Add 2 floors for hub and finale 11 submissions, 15 floors.
Medium CFD: 13 tiers. 1.5 dungeons submitted per tier. 1.6 floors per submission. Add 2 floors for hub and finale 20 submissions, 33 floors.
Epic CFD: 15 tiers (accounting for endgame challenge type tiers). 2 dungeons are submitted per tier (~55% XP to next level per submission). 1.8 floors per submission. 5 breather floors, 2 floors for hub and finale 30 submissions, 61 floors.
Max possible CFD? 20 tiers. 2.5 dungeons per tier. 2 floors per submission. 10 breather floors. 2 floors for hub and finale 50 submissions, 112 floors.

It's going to get fairly large fast, but mostly in the vertical direction. No one floor has to be very dense. I'm hoping to get closer to "medium" rather than "small". But it should be known that there is a ton of headroom with this project, with custom items and monsters, or just by raising monster levels. The first real hard cap I think comes from skill trees running dry.

As for the torches that's a tough one. I tried to use them dynamically as to set the chilling atmosphere of the original. I think it plays a huge part in it. The way some of the shadow play while approaching or entering some of those rooms I think is awesome.

Lanterns were modeled for the main game, but never implemented. A few people on these forums have resurrected them. Seems to me like an ideal light source without flooding the average pack-rat style player with torches.

• Ceiling lantern: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3645&p=37241&hilit=lantern#p37241
• Wall lantern: I'm not sure who has the best implementation... but here's one example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t84LGKhV ... e=youtu.be, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3411&p=35249&hilit=lantern#p35249

[SpiderFighter]

XP rewards
As for brodie's dungeon and xp concerns overall... we could potentially scale back xp rewards for floors or the dungeon as a whole and leave everything but xp rewards untouched. Like if I were to submit my dungeon as a t1 entrant, I'd clone all my monsters and set their xp rewards to about 1/2 to 1/4 of the original values.

I'm all for this solution!

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming we're waiting to see how many submissions are accepted before deciding on a percentage of XP?

The teleporters must be the same objects, named "level_entry_teleporter" and "level_exit_teleporter" for consistency and allowing the Scrolls of Return to work, which is why I supplied first drafts of those in the tools file.

Since we seem to have come to an agreement on exit/entrances, HaunterV might want to throw this in the OP so it doesn't get lost in here. And kudos,btw, for everything you both (HaunterV and Edsploration) are doing in this beastly task...I think it wasn't quite as simple as originally envisioned, and you both are doing an amazing and skilled job in bringing it to life.

Where is this monster gonna exist for download when finished?

I don't think the Nexus is an inappropriate place...we can set up an account under a Team Name (any ideas?) and present it from the community to the community. Some of us don't use Steam, so I'm always disappointed when a map appears there and not where I can get to it.

[HaunterV]

XP rewards
#stuff

I'm all for this solution!

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming we're waiting to see how many submissions are accepted before deciding on a percentage of XP?

I believe once playtesting begins or all the initial submissions are handed in, we acn easily determine the xp penalty to apply to the players.

The teleporters must be the same objects, named "level_entry_teleporter" and "level_exit_teleporter" for consistency and allowing the Scrolls of Return to work, which is why I supplied first drafts of those in the tools file.

I'll update the OP in a little bit, so far teleporters are preferred entrances and exit for the players to get into and out of your submission.

Where is this monster gonna exist for download when finished?

We'll try our best to make sure it is available to everyone everywhere.

Shopkeeper discussion:

On this I merely say, once the community is ready for it we'll include it, but for now we don't have a gold system in place. possibly for the Extended edition if some ppl just want to submit items and such, we'll see in the spring.


Once this monster is out everyone can rest as this won't be happening again until next fall. Though I will keep the editing challenges going fairly regularly.

[HaunterV]

On the topic of Stairs.

You can always put in a fade to black trigger if they are your down stairs and we the stitchers can slap in a teleporter and silent teleport players to another submission.

Just a thought.

[SpiderFighter]

On the topic of Stairs.

You can always put in a fade to black trigger if they are your down stairs and we the stitchers can slap in a teleporter and silent teleport players to another submission.

Just a thought.

That's pretty damned elegant! Might throw the players a bit though to find themselves suddenly back in the hub or in a different designer's map.

I think we (meaning each designer) need to create consistency. Mappers/designers need to realize that this is for the benefit of the players, and find a way to make these color-coded teleporters work within their construct. The player should be able to, after two levels, know what each color-coded teleporter means. Stairs will only confuse people (unless they are color coded as well) into thinking they are simply visiting another floor of the same designer's contribution. It's time to reach a consensus, or we could literally be talking about this one, relatively minor, thing right up until release.

We need to pick our battles. Whether I use torches, ambient lights, or lanterns...shopkeeper or not, return scrolls or not...the way I see it part of the fun in design is the challenge of it. That means that whatever TPTB place in the rules is what I'm going to make work within my own design, because the frungeon will be more consistant and, ergo, the player will have a more immersive experience. It's ok to voice an opinion about something (myself included), but eventually we need to move on, or we'll never move forward.

Sorry for the little soapbox speech, and I hope everyone knows this was NOT directed at any specific person/persons; I just felt it needed to be said.

{edit to add: I hope everyone realizes I'm not trying to be inflammatory; I just don't want us to become bogged down in so much minutiae that the spirit of the thing gets lost.)

[HaunterV]

#soapbox

Sorry for the little soapbox speech, and I hope everyone knows this was NOT directed at any specific person/persons; I just felt it needed to be said.

{edit to add: I hope everyone realizes I'm not trying to be inflammatory; I just don't want us to become bogged down in so much minutiae that the spirit of the thing gets lost.)

Agreed entirely. If everyone would just move forwards we can get submissions and playtesting on the ball sooner and possibly ask people for extra submissions or polished up "deleted scenes".