CFD 2012: Discussion thread (Submission Thread Link Within)

[Edsploration]

Using teleporters for entrances and exits in order to avoid a static entrance/exit locations is the same as using teleporters to reach a staircase. Or a locked door which requires a blind quest to find the key. Making the direction to the objective unclear is easy. I don't think having a static exit/entrance creates a problem, but it definitely solves a few.

I don't think we can "start accepting submissions" when we don't have the rules established first. Or a specific way to submit. That was the whole purpose of my last post, to approach that point. I'd like to organize the whole groundwork into one well-oiled post and perhaps make a new thread to announce it. This thread is more about a discussion of ideas. The "requirements" are conflicting throughout this thread.

I'd like to create a new thread with the announcement of opening this project to submissions, with a nice presentation; clean, concise, well-written directions; and criteria for how the submissions will be arranged/randomized into a robust project representative of the community at large. And I'd like to reach a consensus on the things we have been discussing in this thread before that happens.

I would be happy to contribute a level to FrankenDungeon. In fiddling with the editor and learning its ropes, I've been developing a puzzle-based dungeon level that should fit right in. At this point, I have three things to note concerning level design.

Puzzle-based levels are perfect because they can fit anywhere in the dungeon. Very Frankenstein indeed!

First, I think the best way to handle level entry and exit is a central stairwell. Teleporters are too impersonal for something that should be a significant milestone. On the other hand, designing a level so that it could be reasonably entered at any corner is difficult, and many would likely just end up teleporting the party to the real starting point. A stairwell at a predefined location (central or not) is much easier to plan around. For example, if stairs are placed at (15,16) and (17,16), always descending from north to south, it is easy to create the first room of the level to the south of them and the last one to the north so that they remain accessible even if the stairs exchange places. Of course, if everyone is expected to create two levels, this will be less of an issue, since the stairs between different designers' levels can just be placed into a fixed location. I think it would be better to allow one-level submissions, though.

I agree with your point about stairs. I added the one-level possibility to my list of suggested rules in my previous post.

Second, I suggest that everyone clone whatever keys their levels need. It's easy enough that anyone should manage it with instructions, and it will prevent levels from affecting each other in this respect. Even if this is not adopted as a general rule, I'm certainly going to do so myself, and would recommend the same to anyone whose level or puzzles could be bypassed with an extra key.

This is probably the best solution to key/lock puzzle overlap. Earlier in the thread it sounded like people weren't in favor of it, but if people don't mind doing it, it would be great. I added it under my list of suggestions.

Third, it might be a good idea to give the party a compass and a mortar at the initial level. We should be able to count on the party having those, without handing out more of them at every other level just in case.

Another great point, and one that I didn't think of. I guess this could be added as a requirement for the "Initial Floor" tier!

[SpiderFighter]

I don't think we can "start accepting submissions" when we don't have the rules established first. Or a specific way to submit. That was the whole purpose of my last post, to approach that point. I'd like to organize the whole groundwork into one well-oiled post and perhaps make a new thread to announce it. This thread is more about a discussion of ideas. The "requirements" are conflicting throughout this thread.

I'd like to create a new thread with the announcement of opening this project to submissions, with a nice presentation; clean, concise, well-written directions; and criteria for how the submissions will be arranged/randomized into a robust project representative of the community at large. And I'd like to reach a consensus on the things we have been discussing in this thread before that happens.

Honestly, I was very excited when I first read this thread last week, but it seemed that, while the idea behind it is brilliant, the executaion is muddled, so I walked on by. As Eds said, "The "requirements" are conflicting throughout this thread." I agree that the idea deserves another chance to shine, in its own thread, with clear instructions and a plan of execution.

For my two cents: In other projects of this type I've been involved with, it was perfectly acceptable for the team leaders to receive the raw files (as in, uncompiled) to tweak for overall balance (health/food/ammo type stuff ONLY) and exit placement. I would gladly allow any maps I submit to be fine-tuned if it would mean a more polished, playable (and therefore FUN) mod.

[EDIT]: I also think teleporters are a great way to enter/end a map, as it renders the problem of entrance and exit placement moot. Stairs could be used within an author's own two maps (as long as they'll be placed together within the mod), to keep things interesting. Personally, as a game player, I never minded if level 2 started in a slightly different place than level 1 ended. I get bored by realistic archetecture in a fantasy setting.

[HaunterV]

Updating the OP to reflect the current climate and state of the project. And to provide clarity. I have admittedly allowed things to get way too muddy and unclear. Which brings me to the following....

I would like to extend an apology to Edsploration. It was wrong of me to simply cut and paste his submissions without first at least asking, thus trivializing additions and information brought forth by him and discounting the extreme amount of effort, thought, and personal time he has invested into furthering the community as a whole. Understand it was not done out of malice and merely interesting points you raised and I thought everyone should read, on top of that I was at work and figured; Cut+Paste+go back later would = everyone happy. This is not true, I have offended and ask forgiveness. Going forward I will read the thread more thoroughly and make additions to the OP with more thought and consideration.

The apology is extended to everyone else who has contributed thus far, I welcome and encourage discourse between us all, because this is at the heart of it all a community project and admittedly the conduct I have shown has been disrespectful and I ask for forgiveness, and patience. This will be a new thread going forwards.

[SpiderFighter]

I also apologize, as I should have read the entire thread...the idea of a central staircase is a great one. It would be easy to block off for the player and would serve as a tease. In my current mod, the exits are all out in the open; it's getting to them that's the trick.

OTOH, this might limit some mappers' ability to create what they want, as every map would have to come back to that central point eventually, whether by corridor or teleporter. How about just using something as simple as a specific colored ceiling light to indicate that this is the exit? If the first level exits with stairs washed in, say, purple lighting, and then the next level exits with the same light, the player will understand, whether it's a teleporter or not, that..ah, yes, there's the exit.

Examples below with green lighting:

SpoilerShow

[Belblindd]

I just need to say it:

This is a great thing you started here!

I almost finished my contribution and I'm really looking forward playing all the floor the community throws at itself...
Well, as soon as the entrance/exit discussion has ended successfully, of course!

My thoughts about it where just simply create the teleporters with a script next to them, which only reads: entrance or exit.
Just to ensure that it can't go wrong...
I understand that staircases can't be a solution, for everyone has to have it at the same spot, which is in my case, more or less impossible. And I think a teleporter to another teleporter will just work out fine.
I hope.

Keep it up!

[HaunterV]

god, I had a giant reedit to the OP almost done and a coworker closed the friggn browser while i was away from my comp.

[HaunterV]

Edited the op
Have to get home , will continue to edit OP in a bit

[Edsploration]

I would like to extend an apology to Edsploration. It was wrong of me to simply cut and paste his submissions without first at least asking, thus trivializing additions and information brought forth by him and discounting the extreme amount of effort, thought, and personal time he has invested into furthering the community as a whole. Understand it was not done out of malice and merely interesting points you raised and I thought everyone should read, on top of that I was at work and figured; Cut+Paste+go back later would = everyone happy. This is not true, I have offended and ask forgiveness. Going forward I will read the thread more thoroughly and make additions to the OP with more thought and consideration.

The apology is extended to everyone else who has contributed thus far, I welcome and encourage discourse between us all, because this is at the heart of it all a community project and admittedly the conduct I have shown has been disrespectful and I ask for forgiveness, and patience. This will be a new thread going forwards.

You outdo yourself with such a gracious apology. Thank you. I hope that my eagerness to participate in this project hasn't taken wind away from others involved, or observers waiting to join.

-We will need volunteers to help stitch the frankendungeon together.

I'd like to volunteer for that responsibility. It shouldn't take much work because:

• Setting coordinates for entrance/exit teleporters is not much work.
• Avoiding duplicate ID's is remedied in almost all cases by regular expressions find/replace queries. I just tested this in my own dungeon, and was able to successfully rename all the id's of a dungeon floor in one step. There are a few potential tricky corner cases, but they are quickly identified with the right tools.

I would put each tier in order, but randomize the dungeons within each tier. Puzzle (no XP) levels would be placed randomly throughout the whole dungeon. I think testing is the most tedious process which could use a few volunteers. The dungeon could grow quite large depending on how much is submitted.

Is there any reason to set 3 floors as the maximum? It seems anything you can do in 3 floors, you can do in 2. And you can really fit a heck of a lot in 2 floors if you wanted to fill them entirely. If you wanted to do even more, wouldn't it be better to submit twice in different tiers and styles than a dungeon so lengthy it could stand on its own?

[EDIT]: I also think teleporters are a great way to enter/end a map, as it renders the problem of entrance and exit placement moot. Stairs could be used within an author's own two maps (as long as they'll be placed together within the mod), to keep things interesting.

While I think stairs alone work well, I've come to the point where I'm in full agreement with teleporters instead of stairs, and would like to reinforce SpiderFighter's point quoted above. I'll add that when I originally suggested central stairs, it was for the reason of allowing the dungeon designer to branch out in any direction freely. But the fact is, starting with a completely blank slate and a movable entrance/exit allows total freedom of design.

I'd like to suggest something else following SpiderFighter's example of colored exits:
green-lit teleporter = up / entrance
red-lit teleporter = down / exit

My thoughts about it where just simply create the teleporters with a script next to them, which only reads: entrance or exit.
Just to ensure that it can't go wrong...

You could also set the id of your entrance to be "entrance_belblindd" and exit: "exit_belblindd", for example. If you used multiple exits (another thing static stairs can't do well), ID each one "exit_1_belblindd", "exit_2_belblindd" and so on.

[SpiderFighter]

Nice suggestions. Now it's feeling like something that can actually succeed.
I'm digging the red and green exits...how perfect for Christmas!! Who wants to model a trimmed tree?

[Ancylus]

As I noted, I would prefer stairs because I think going down them feels more like progress than stepping into a teleporter. If the only issue with them is the limits on the starting and ending points, and you're willing to use teleporters anyway, you could just port the party from the first room to the actual start of the level and from exit to the last room (and vice versa). All you'd need to do is reserve room for the stairwell at the right location, and 3x5 tiles should suffice for that.

All that said, if stairs are deemed too troublesome, I think I can live with using teleporters.

Avoiding duplicate ID's is remedied in almost all cases by regular expressions find/replace queries. I just tested this in my own dungeon, and was able to successfully rename all the id's of a dungeon floor in one step. There are a few potential tricky corner cases, but they are quickly identified with the right tools.

I'm very glad contributors won't need to manually name every single pillar and torch holder. The question is, how well does your system work with names used in connectors and scripts? At the very least I'm pretty sure it can't replace names parsed together from multiple components within the scripts. If/when it can't replace everything, there has to be a way to leave some names as they are: replace only names with conflicts, don't replace names beginning with designer's name, or something else along those lines. Or only use it for levels where it works fine and require complete manual naming for the rest.

Puzzle (no XP) levels would be placed randomly throughout the whole dungeon.

I was actually planning on giving some experience as reward for solving the puzzles. The amount is of course easily adjustable to whatever suits the dungeon. Even without quest XP, puzzle levels really need to be assigned a place in the dungeon before their final versions are submitted so that itemization can be tuned to fit.