Is LoG a shameless copy of a classic?

[badhabit]

Um, is something being lost in the translation there? It may be that he actually means it in a complimentary manner, nuances lost by Google Translate. Otherwise, if LoG is a shameless copy, where does that leave Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, Captive, and dozens of other games directly influenced by Dungeon Master? There's no shame in homage or inspiration, especially when it improves upon the formula.

The german word he uses is "dreist" which can be translated as bold, audacious, impudent or shameless. He means it in a negative way.
Here is a list of possible translations:
http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/dreist.html

P.S. "dreist" is pretty negative, it can have a slightly positive meaning of "accomplishing something the easy way being successful with it, the result can stil be good". But I don't see the LoG team took an easy route with this.

I think too, that translation of the thread creator of "dreist"(as frech maybe even unverschämt) as "shameless" over-empasizes the negative aspect. I think "cheeky/perky" , fits the meant meaining in context of the sentence and whole text, better. If the author really would have want to emphasize the negative aspect, he would have used directly "schamlos" (shameless), I think.

[edit]
PS: found now the comment of Jörg Langer, there it IS indeed meant negative. But he is using it (only) to mark the most negative possible interpretation of grimrock, contrasted by be most positive "hommage".

[Goffmog]

It definitely is not, it obviously revolves around the same gameplay - in the same way that every 3D FPS revolves around the same gameplay as Quake, and every 3rd person platformer is basically Tomb Raider. Grimrock is its own game. It feels a lot like both DM and EotB but is different enough in almost every aspect besides the basic control system. If you go back and play DM and EotB you get a feel for just how different the two games are - when you play Grimrock you feel as though you're playing a game faithful to the genre, that takes what it wants from each of those classics but doesn't compromise on adding its own systems and removing the bits it doesn't want.

I don't know whether it takes the genre forward, since I have mixed feelings about systems based on fixed classes and skill points, which to me is a concession to the expectations of modern RPG gamers after decades of games based on tabletop roleplaying with transparent rules systems and stats. I don't think that's progressive, and would have liked to have seen a good attempt at taking the experience based class system from DM and evolving it - but above all relying less on character stat building and more on tangible progression through the dungeon to give the player a sense of progress in the game. However, it does make the game a distinct offering within the grid based RPG genre (whatever happend to the term "flick-screen"? I liked that) and thus not a direct copy of anything that came before it. This comment is just another example of pseudo journalism by an unqualified nobody with an axe to grind, in the editorless publishing era we live in, thanks to the good ol' interweb.

[lowzei]

@Kukulcan
http://www.kultboy.com/index.php?site=t&id=1199

[Jinxed]

its like saying that all MMORPGS are copies of World of Warcraft just cuz they are MMOs in fantasy settings

More like shameless ultima online copies

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

thank you for reviving this article discussion. Else I would have missed it.

And although "shameless" may be suitable as a "literary" translation of the German word "dreist", you need to consider to specific things about this article:

It addresses youths in Germany; and as far as I have experienced it, youths tend to use "overzealous" words in order to express their tendencies of "opinion", but without actually speaking in the full-scope-understanding of the used word. So the authors of this article simply address a (major/ huge) part of their intended audience, which btw. they explain a few lines later.
The second thing is the context between "dreist copying" the riddles of DM and the overall expression of impressions of the game. Also keep in mind that they use this particular word especially in the context of the riddles and puzzles. The way I understand this German description and opinion within this article, they really seem to be very happy and excited about the game. That is actually what they tell their audience almost anytime. The rating of 7.5 seems to be lower then what they have written, but here I simply don't know how they relate the different attributes of the game to each other.
Edit: And yes, a small detail: They say the 7.5 does not consider the "old-school-nostalgia"; this would add another full point to the game, so they rate the game inofficially at 8.5, which is kind of cool, isn't it? /edit

All in all: No, they don't mean "dreist" in the sense of "shameful". Also this would be a bold statement, because actually they don't know, whether or not Almost Human really copied DM-riddles and DM-puzzles. Maybe, maybe not; but maybe AH created riddles as they would obviously be architected considering the game-mechanics ...

I think this "article" is very pleasing and very good. +1 To this one ...

All the best!
Liam

P.S.: I am from Germany and therefore did not read the google-translated, but the original source ...

[LiamKerrington]

Sigh! I wish it had been a A shameless copy of DM, I would love to play that game again with today's graphics and sound..........sigh!

I am pretty sure you will be able to play "something like" DM soon, when the editor is available ... Maybe not all monsters, probably not the character-mechanics, but at least the dungeons and riddles and puzzles (many to most at least ...)

[Callipygous]

The birth of first Artist and first critic

[lowzei]

@LiamKerrington
Actually they critisised a number of aspects which simply were wrong. They made assumptions to the graphics engine which didn't make sense. Then they critisised the game for aspects which they don't critisise in other games. It was obvious that the testers didn't play the game properly, lack a technical background and were nitpicking in a unreasonable way. Therefore LoG had a very long and heated discussion in which the readers corrected some of the faults they made which lead to several changes in the review and stepping up with the score from 7 to 7.5.

They didn't step up to a 8 because, although they knew it would have been fair, that's just not the way they rate Indie games relative to other games in their system. The chief editor basically wrote in the discussion or said in his video review afterwards that it's somehow neat but not awesome because it's only a copy by a bunch of finnish people and that's not enough for today. It's this arrogance towards Indie games which the site and some of its testers practice since quite some time and which reflects in their scoring system.

Lenhardt on the other side liked the game in the video review a lot but he also wasn't responsible for the review. Last but not least the qualities of LoG or DM aren't about some nostalgic factor in the first place. They are more about working mechanics and a great gameplay and therefore the nostalgic component is irrelevant. You can show the game to people who never played DM and they still enjoy the game because it just works. It's based on DM but it doesn't need DM to convince as a game. That's a important difference.

[Jirodyne]

Does any of this really matter? It's a great fun game. Everyone has an opinion how what they like, all reviews are bias no matter what. Even if this was a direct copy of DM with just upgraded features and graphics. Does it matter? Games are for fun, and players are having fun. Not everyone likes these kinda games, but those that do love it. So who cares what a few minor people say? Just keep having fun.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

thank you lowzei. Then I need to amend my comment: The article as it stands right now is fair enough. I have no idea how the article was before it was changed; therefore I don't want to comment on things of the past ... Especially since fans have used their means to get things changed. Fans +1!

All the best!
Liam