Global cooldowns will not work. Instead of running five circles around an ogre before you are done, you would circle ten rounds instead! Because standing in place still isn't an option, (for negating additional cooldown) it would just prolong the fight making it even more boring.
In some roguelikes there is a global variable in the background, that gives mobs ability to do two actions at the same time with certain percentage. For example if you try to escape a monster next to you who has the same movement speed as you (say you run 100 turns to regain some hp) it will be able to hit your back occasionally.
Maybe this could be implemented in Grimrock as well. Mobs would effectively gain the ability to surprise players:)
2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
When is it ever boring?
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LiamKerrington
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:18 am
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Hi everyone,
***Wall of Words ahead***
thank you very much for this very rich discussion. And although there were a few short times (not attempts) in which the quality of it lacked a bit, the overall nature of this huge dialogue is amazing. Thank you very much. And yes: I have read all 33 pages so far ... It was not so much of a challenge as it was playing lLoG the first time on hard, old-school-mode, with the default party and with choosing skills "poorly" on the first levels ...
Since I played the game once by now (I have restarted it now with Toorum ...), I would like to add my personal 2c to this discussion based on my experiences.
(0)
Just as an aside: earlier someone mentioned that it would be a deadly situation if an ogre was placed in a location where you would not be able to 2x2, which is why there was no such situation ... Well: That statement was wrong, just remember the Goromog Temple I and the spiraling corridor at the end of it ...
There you have two Ogres in narrow passage; and when you have to face the second Ogre, the corridor behind you is closed, so unless you do not press the hidden button in order to re-open the passage you have to fight an Ogre without dancing around ...
(1)
As for the title of this topic: "strafing undermines character building"
What strikes me a lot is: Yes, there are some special skill trees especially dedicated to defense abilities. But no one actually mentioned that combat skill-trees also offer plenty of defensive abilities for characters - like additional hitpoints or dexterity (therefore evasion) bonuses. So actually the game itself offers you at least some basic development of defensive abilities by building a character with primary offensive skills. And therefore 2x2 does not undermine character building in general, but maybe partially.
(2)
There seems to be kind of a general consensus (after all) that 2x2-strafing is part of the game; and it seems to be as intended, especially when considering the power of many creatures and many situations within the game. I just remember a lot of the hallway-combat situations in many to most levels of this dungeon - against snails, mushrooms, crabs, skeletons, blue dinosaurs and whatnot ... And except for backing away there was no strafing at all; defensive maneuvers often rely on - actually - the way your characters are build. And yes: During my first play-through I put plenty of skill-points on the armor-skills of my front-line-characters. And although I doubted the benefit of this, in the last levels I realized how much this helped me while combating the Goromogs or the Guardians when I was not quick enough at strafing ... And yes, that involves me having not one character having maxed out any one skill ...
Also, from reading this topic: the OP as well as some other forum-members here have made their point clear that this whole thread is not about removing the 2x2-maneuver, but about making the variety of tactics to play through this game (a lot?) richer. I concur and like at least thinking about this approach.
That is why I will focus on "changes" as well, though this may get slightly offtopic, since my thoughts are less about "dancing around", but more about other changes within the game making the "dance" probably less effective as a tactic.
(3)
Though: the myth still roams this forum that it would be possible to play through tLoG on level "hard" with a lvl 1 character/ party. Now, THIS is utterly wrong. On the one side there are a few situations in which you have no way of "dancing" around monsters (especially in the spiraling passage in Goromog Tempel I or the many slime-monsters at the beginning of the Ancient Chambers); on the other side there are very few situations in which you have no choice but to sustain a trap-effect (like the poisonous hallway before the end-boss-fight!). So no: It is not possible to play through tLoG with a lvl 1 character/ party on playmode "hard" - no way.
That is: Unless (!) the very, very, very, very, very unlikely, though not totally impossible situation occurs that by all means the Ogre always misses you while attacking or the average damage of these traps remain very, very low or the slime-blobs miss you all the times etc. blabla ... I think it is valid to assume that sooner or later you either die or gain enough experience to gain at least a few levels on your characters from beating 'em creatures ...
Then also consider all the different areas in which you cannot bypass creatures in order to access certain keys or riddles in order to get to the next stairs down into the mountain; I hold it as very unlikely that you can do this with dragging creatures away like crazy and locking them away behind doors or whatnot ...
So, no: Not even in theory this would be possible. If someone manages to do so, I am looking forward to seeing the YouTube video proving this ...
(4)
Regardless of the before-mentioned thoughts, and although I am very happy to have a game that works perfectly well, I do see a valid point in thinking about improving combat in this game.
One way could be: Add another threat level - nightmare-mode or something, which changes the overall behavior of creatures.
(5)
But as with the EotB series I guess the major improvements will be achieved by adding more challenging creatures of doom. So, how about: creatures being a lot quicker, less dependent on where they stand;
creatures being surrounded by deadly gases filling in all 8 spaces around them or providing special magic and malicious effects (weakening aura, blinding, ...);
creatures moving diagonally (which probably would have a lot of impact on the game-engine I assume) or even teleporting themselves like crazy and making them really hard to battle;
creatures with reach;
creatures being (almost) invisible or using darkness as surrounding effect;
like others said: monsters aiming at items and not characters (remember the rust-monsters in EotB?), or monsters using special abilities like petrification, deathray, slowing you down, certain immunities (no blade- or arrow-weapons against skeletons) ...?
I think the game-mechanics itself - stats-wise, item-wise, skill-wise - do not offer so much opportunities to change the game or to develop different or a richer variety of statistics without changing the nature or core-concepts of the game itself; but monsters do.
(6)
What would be kind of a challenge for the game is this: a "learning" AI, which monitors the general tactics chosen by the gamer, and the reaction of the creatures about how to approach the heroes in the game. But, again, I guess: This would need some serious changes within the game itself.
(7)
The whole idea about this "brainstormed" collection of ideas is: You would not have to change the method to play the game; movement and combat still works the same way as with this first (and hopefully not only) Grimrock-game; but it would be possible to add some extra-challenge within the game by adding a broader variety of monsters or even "mechanics" / "puzzles" using monsters making them harder (remember the cell-block in lvl 2?).
(8)
What I really enjoyed about this game is its "real old-school" feeling. It really does not matter what part I look at - the character "sheet", the character development, movement. combat, items and their impact on the game, all the riddles, the strategies chosen. And in my personal opinion: I would not want to see that changed. Because EotB III was so much different from EoB I and II, I did not play this for very long. If I wanted to play a game with richer "roleplaying-elements", I would really not want to play games like Grimrock; but actually I do want to play games like Grimrock, because they provide the "right" mixture of code and gaming-opportunities ...
(9)
As for the OP-propositions:
Also my guts tells me: Nay, this would make the game a lot too complicated; the feel of it would change drastically.
All the best!
Mad
***Wall of Words ahead***
thank you very much for this very rich discussion. And although there were a few short times (not attempts) in which the quality of it lacked a bit, the overall nature of this huge dialogue is amazing. Thank you very much. And yes: I have read all 33 pages so far ... It was not so much of a challenge as it was playing lLoG the first time on hard, old-school-mode, with the default party and with choosing skills "poorly" on the first levels ...
Since I played the game once by now (I have restarted it now with Toorum ...), I would like to add my personal 2c to this discussion based on my experiences.
(0)
Just as an aside: earlier someone mentioned that it would be a deadly situation if an ogre was placed in a location where you would not be able to 2x2, which is why there was no such situation ... Well: That statement was wrong, just remember the Goromog Temple I and the spiraling corridor at the end of it ...
There you have two Ogres in narrow passage; and when you have to face the second Ogre, the corridor behind you is closed, so unless you do not press the hidden button in order to re-open the passage you have to fight an Ogre without dancing around ... (1)
As for the title of this topic: "strafing undermines character building"
What strikes me a lot is: Yes, there are some special skill trees especially dedicated to defense abilities. But no one actually mentioned that combat skill-trees also offer plenty of defensive abilities for characters - like additional hitpoints or dexterity (therefore evasion) bonuses. So actually the game itself offers you at least some basic development of defensive abilities by building a character with primary offensive skills. And therefore 2x2 does not undermine character building in general, but maybe partially.
(2)
There seems to be kind of a general consensus (after all) that 2x2-strafing is part of the game; and it seems to be as intended, especially when considering the power of many creatures and many situations within the game. I just remember a lot of the hallway-combat situations in many to most levels of this dungeon - against snails, mushrooms, crabs, skeletons, blue dinosaurs and whatnot ... And except for backing away there was no strafing at all; defensive maneuvers often rely on - actually - the way your characters are build. And yes: During my first play-through I put plenty of skill-points on the armor-skills of my front-line-characters. And although I doubted the benefit of this, in the last levels I realized how much this helped me while combating the Goromogs or the Guardians when I was not quick enough at strafing ... And yes, that involves me having not one character having maxed out any one skill ...
Also, from reading this topic: the OP as well as some other forum-members here have made their point clear that this whole thread is not about removing the 2x2-maneuver, but about making the variety of tactics to play through this game (a lot?) richer. I concur and like at least thinking about this approach.
That is why I will focus on "changes" as well, though this may get slightly offtopic, since my thoughts are less about "dancing around", but more about other changes within the game making the "dance" probably less effective as a tactic.
(3)
Though: the myth still roams this forum that it would be possible to play through tLoG on level "hard" with a lvl 1 character/ party. Now, THIS is utterly wrong. On the one side there are a few situations in which you have no way of "dancing" around monsters (especially in the spiraling passage in Goromog Tempel I or the many slime-monsters at the beginning of the Ancient Chambers); on the other side there are very few situations in which you have no choice but to sustain a trap-effect (like the poisonous hallway before the end-boss-fight!). So no: It is not possible to play through tLoG with a lvl 1 character/ party on playmode "hard" - no way.
That is: Unless (!) the very, very, very, very, very unlikely, though not totally impossible situation occurs that by all means the Ogre always misses you while attacking or the average damage of these traps remain very, very low or the slime-blobs miss you all the times etc. blabla ... I think it is valid to assume that sooner or later you either die or gain enough experience to gain at least a few levels on your characters from beating 'em creatures ...
Then also consider all the different areas in which you cannot bypass creatures in order to access certain keys or riddles in order to get to the next stairs down into the mountain; I hold it as very unlikely that you can do this with dragging creatures away like crazy and locking them away behind doors or whatnot ...
So, no: Not even in theory this would be possible. If someone manages to do so, I am looking forward to seeing the YouTube video proving this ...
(4)
Regardless of the before-mentioned thoughts, and although I am very happy to have a game that works perfectly well, I do see a valid point in thinking about improving combat in this game.
One way could be: Add another threat level - nightmare-mode or something, which changes the overall behavior of creatures.
(5)
But as with the EotB series I guess the major improvements will be achieved by adding more challenging creatures of doom. So, how about: creatures being a lot quicker, less dependent on where they stand;
creatures being surrounded by deadly gases filling in all 8 spaces around them or providing special magic and malicious effects (weakening aura, blinding, ...);
creatures moving diagonally (which probably would have a lot of impact on the game-engine I assume) or even teleporting themselves like crazy and making them really hard to battle;
creatures with reach;
creatures being (almost) invisible or using darkness as surrounding effect;
like others said: monsters aiming at items and not characters (remember the rust-monsters in EotB?), or monsters using special abilities like petrification, deathray, slowing you down, certain immunities (no blade- or arrow-weapons against skeletons) ...?
I think the game-mechanics itself - stats-wise, item-wise, skill-wise - do not offer so much opportunities to change the game or to develop different or a richer variety of statistics without changing the nature or core-concepts of the game itself; but monsters do.
(6)
What would be kind of a challenge for the game is this: a "learning" AI, which monitors the general tactics chosen by the gamer, and the reaction of the creatures about how to approach the heroes in the game. But, again, I guess: This would need some serious changes within the game itself.
(7)
The whole idea about this "brainstormed" collection of ideas is: You would not have to change the method to play the game; movement and combat still works the same way as with this first (and hopefully not only) Grimrock-game; but it would be possible to add some extra-challenge within the game by adding a broader variety of monsters or even "mechanics" / "puzzles" using monsters making them harder (remember the cell-block in lvl 2?).
(8)
What I really enjoyed about this game is its "real old-school" feeling. It really does not matter what part I look at - the character "sheet", the character development, movement. combat, items and their impact on the game, all the riddles, the strategies chosen. And in my personal opinion: I would not want to see that changed. Because EotB III was so much different from EoB I and II, I did not play this for very long. If I wanted to play a game with richer "roleplaying-elements"
SpoilerShow
(I say: There is not one single player computer game being a roleplaying game after all, 'cause all of them boil down to how you succeed in letting your 'puter process code on the one hand and let you pass any programmed situation, no matter how randomized on the other side; there is no roleplaying like within most pen& paper or MMOs)
(9)
As for the OP-propositions:
I played through this game with the default party on level "hard" and without auto-map, and I really had some trouble, especially in the lower levels with the more tougher and/ or more challenging creatures of doom - mostly because I did not min-max the combat-skills. Therefore I think it really depends on the personal skills of each gamer as well as what exactly your choices are within the game and character-development.1varangian wrote: I think the effectiveness of the strafing tactic undermines the whole RPG / character building aspect of the game. Crabs, ogres.. they all go down without ever even getting to attack you. Defensive abilities and stats become meaningless. I think there's a lot of room for improvement here.
Nice one. Attacks of opportunities. Would add some spice to the game. But this would also mean that you would focus a lot more on keeping your position on the flank or rear of the creatures, wouldn't it? Therefore this change would actually support the 2x2-tactic, won't it?1varangian wrote: - Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you, depending on its speed and agility. (There could be skills to increase Evasion bonus against movement provoked attacks, or skills that let you strafe safely). Extensive circle strafing would still be highly effective and reward manual skill, but not deny the monsters 100% of their attacks.
No, I don't like that one (just an opinion, no argument -except maybe this one:). Gamers could start to consider making the frontline-fighters 100% wrestlers (fastest weapons there are, I guess) ... So this would not change the tactic of the game in the end ...1varangian wrote: - Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking. Daggers could have less/no delay so Rogues could still feel like ninjas. The delay could also help make weapons feel different - slow heavy hitting vs. small and fast. (i.e. click on Great Hammer.. build up sound effect plays.. 2 seconds later the attack lands with a massive thud)
Also my guts tells me: Nay, this would make the game a lot too complicated; the feel of it would change drastically.
Incapacitated, killed, "bound", maybe "slowed" or "weakened" characters could slow down the party, making the whole party move slower while 2x2-dancing and therefore raising the chances for the creature to attack or follow the party fast enough. Yes, interesting idea. And don't we have this already? As soon at least one party-member has too much weight on his inventory, the movement gets slower, doesn't it?1varangian wrote: - Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances (say, someone is grabbed by a tentacle). Or have the incapacitated party member be auto-killed if the rest of the party flees instead of helps.
+11varangian wrote: - Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.
We already/ nearly have that with the scavengers and these vile and very fast hornets/ giant stirges ...1varangian wrote: - Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe.
No.1varangian wrote: - Make charging monsters a bit smarter
All the best!
Mad
At the end of my first time with "the Legend of Grimrock" - played on default-party, hard, old-school mode:
My first time
My first time
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trancelistic
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:32 am
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
I really like to see 1 thing changed though. Monsters opening doors who has a chain pull thingy.
ALso dungeon master on the SNES ( my personal favo version) Had also creaapier sounds. E.g if you went to rest you could still hear teleports suddenly spawn, or a monster spawning if it was close by. Some monsters footsteps you also heard in your sleep, wich was scarey because in sleep mode the time goes like 2 to 4 x faster, so in no time it was hitting you (SURPRISE!) haha, specialy the ghosts scared the shit out of me, lol. And ofcourse the darn monsters always found me, even if hidden in a room behind a closed gate.
It was(for me) Always exciting to find a save place to rest, and not to kill my champs in my sleep ( sometimes they where to exhousted, and died in their sleep haha)
As sidenote: I hope AH also put in water to drink and stamina, like in dungeon master. Heck I even loved the leveling up in dungeon master. PRactice vs spawning tree's to make your spells go stronger.
Well my two cents,
about the strafing in LOG, I do think the monster could use a bit more speed or slight smarter A.I. Like the so called wasp. They are lovely to fight against, just like the ogre.
ALso dungeon master on the SNES ( my personal favo version) Had also creaapier sounds. E.g if you went to rest you could still hear teleports suddenly spawn, or a monster spawning if it was close by. Some monsters footsteps you also heard in your sleep, wich was scarey because in sleep mode the time goes like 2 to 4 x faster, so in no time it was hitting you (SURPRISE!) haha, specialy the ghosts scared the shit out of me, lol. And ofcourse the darn monsters always found me, even if hidden in a room behind a closed gate.
It was(for me) Always exciting to find a save place to rest, and not to kill my champs in my sleep ( sometimes they where to exhousted, and died in their sleep haha)
As sidenote: I hope AH also put in water to drink and stamina, like in dungeon master. Heck I even loved the leveling up in dungeon master. PRactice vs spawning tree's to make your spells go stronger.
Well my two cents,
about the strafing in LOG, I do think the monster could use a bit more speed or slight smarter A.I. Like the so called wasp. They are lovely to fight against, just like the ogre.
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Dr.Disaster
- Posts: 2876
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:48 am
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Changed in which way?trancelistic wrote:I really like to see 1 thing changed though. Monsters opening doors who has a chain pull thingy.
btw: nice thread necro
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Please do not make this game into something it isn't.
It is modeled after Dungeon Master the original action RPG. Dungeon Master plays the same way. As for beating DM or a mod of DM with this engine with a lvl 1 char good luck with that.
I always considered the base Grimrock a tutorial, more than a finished product.
Go out and play some mods and see how your strafing and not worrying about skills and defenses work..not!
If you want a challenge add true food starvation (as in DM) to the original Grimrock mod and take out the blue heal stones (just make them res). You wont be strafing at lvl 1 all day for long before you drop dead from hunger.
It is modeled after Dungeon Master the original action RPG. Dungeon Master plays the same way. As for beating DM or a mod of DM with this engine with a lvl 1 char good luck with that.
I always considered the base Grimrock a tutorial, more than a finished product.
Go out and play some mods and see how your strafing and not worrying about skills and defenses work..not!
If you want a challenge add true food starvation (as in DM) to the original Grimrock mod and take out the blue heal stones (just make them res). You wont be strafing at lvl 1 all day for long before you drop dead from hunger.