Thels wrote:Or maybe the puzzle is to create a 2x2 room for you to strafe around in so you can beat the monster. Like having a cramped space with pits with an Ogre behind the next door. The only way for you to beat that Ogre is to create a 2x2 grid for yourself somewhere.
One thing the game could use is a "knock back" attack/effect for fighters and a spell for mages. The attack could be used defensively or could be used to push enemies into pit traps.
Another option is a "knock out" attack (also done by the freeze attack); flying creatures that are knocked out should fall through pits if they are over them; (does this happen already? If you freeze a Crowvern or Uggardian)?
Also, (I mentioned sometime before) that enemies could have multi square attacks.
In this instance dodging to an adjacent square would still subject some of the party to risk, if that square was among those affected by the attack.
Thels wrote:How can you seriously wish for less possible customization? :S If there's people making type A dungeons and people making type B dungeons, and you prefer type B dungeons, then making it impossible to create type A dungeons will NOT cause more type B dungeons to appear.
I just find mods that fiddle with core mechanics tend to break the game. nobody liked the way stealth worked in Oblivion, and so many mods came out that fiddled with the formula - I made a couple myself - but even though they made certain tactics more viable in certain situations, they did more to unbalance the game and break it in other places. Furthermore you ended up with a mod community flooded with everybody's own take on how they thought the game's systems could be improved, and very little that was actually creative and added any value to the game. A grid based game like Grimrock is crying out for a tool that allows and encourages people to make new levels - first and foremost. IMO it isn't about type A dungeons vs type B dungeons, it's about making dungeons as opposed to making a mess out of the game
Thels wrote:Or maybe the puzzle is to create a 2x2 room for you to strafe around in so you can beat the monster. Like having a cramped space with pits with an Ogre behind the next door. The only way for you to beat that Ogre is to create a 2x2 grid for yourself somewhere.
One thing the game could use is a "knock back" attack/effect for fighters and a spell for mages. The attack could be used defensively or could be used to push enemies into pit traps.
Another option is a "knock out" attack (also done by the freeze attack); flying creatures that are knocked out should fall through pits if they are over them; (does this happen already? If you freeze a Crowvern or Uggardian)?
Also, (I mentioned sometime before) that enemies could have multi square attacks.
In this instance dodging to an adjacent square would still subject some of the party to risk, if that square was among those affected by the attack.
All good ideas but I still think there's a lot that can be done, in the existing system, with good dungeon design.
I'm on level 8 right now in my deliberately slow first playthrough and I really enjoyed the level with the slimes and the flying fireball firing guys. I think I had 1 or maybe 2 good opportunities to 2x2 dance my foes and most of the time found myself backtracking down corridors and around corners. I got myself cornered a couple of times and had to use up some bombs, and died once when I got completely surrounded by slimes. Except when down to the last monster from an area, and only if I led them back to where I could 2x2 them I can't say that there was an "I win" strategy that was even remotely worth the tedium. If combat had more to do with my characters' stats then my "I win" strategy would be to grind snails for eternity until I had an overpowered party. In every good RPG I've ever played it's always much more fun to mix it up and take risks. Character building undermines fun!
Isaac wrote:One thing the game could use is a "knock back" attack/effect for fighters and a spell for mages. The attack could be used defensively or could be used to push enemies into pit traps.
I'm not sure about this one. Sure, it would be a cool ability, and used when intended to be used, it could work quite well.
However, it could also lead to situations where hard challenges are suddenly extremely simplified if you have someone with the knockback ability in your party.
Q: I have noticed this issue since I started playing beta. You just get hit by monster's melee attack when you are obvious out of their range. I don't know whether it's a latency issue, or intentional design, or bug?
A: It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks ... We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Whisper wrote:Quote above is from Diablo 3 forum but its sums up pretty nicely why 2x2 strafing/kiting shouldnt undermine character building.
Except that Diablo 3 is a Hack n Slash game whereas LoG is more of a Puzzle solving game.
And yeah, smart use of abilities is useful when you actually have a lot of abilities to choose between, including actual dodge abilities that are meant for jumping out of harm's way over simply walking backwards.
In LoG, you have "attack", and that might randomly use a special attack which basically boils down to more damage. So not being able to dodge would mean you'd stand there spam your attacks. Are you sure that really makes the game more interesting?
I'm on my 2nd playthrough now paying more attention to where I put my skill points and guess what?
My unarmed frontline rogue with ridiculous evasion and my fire mage (both with ridiculous anti-fire) can sit having a picnic while surrounded by angry Uggardians. They take literally no damage at all from fire attacks. Furthermore, the aforementioned rogue can go toe-to-toe with an ogre and murder it with his bare hands without being hit once.
My character builds are undermining my 2x2 strafing!!!
