My negative impressions and suggestions

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
WaterKnight
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Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:27 pm

My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by WaterKnight »

Do not take me wrong. The game was very worth its money in my opinion and pleased me in general. Still, there are some aspects I truly believe could have been clearly better. Being a spare time mapmaker for games myself, analyzing the contras and reflecting gameplay concepts are an interesting matter to me.

The following post contains spoilers, especially the last part about the ending of the game. Continue reading on your own risk.

The automap looks monotone and you cannot quite remember the area looking on it. This is because it shows only the least. Having disabled old school mode, I do not really feel the need to indicate the obvious. Moreover, you cannot place different symbols, therefore it would not be well recognizable with one glance.
Crystals, iron Doors, visible switches, teleporters should all have their unique markings. Comments are for riddles, special switches, mechanics or items you could not associate a meaning to yet.

Casting spells is the most meaningful tool in battle but even without energy, you cannot just be completely helpless. I do not quite get why swinging weapons draws energy or those amounts of energy considering the low regen. They are the base option. It also means that the mage is disabled to a great extent using normal weapons, a second penalty to his/her minor physical stats. I would like to give him/her a ranged weapon as gap-closer or when energy is consumed but then, no energy for spells grows back. There should be some non-magical abilities for the other classes, especially since there is no cleric, which would support the other chars. At the moment, when putting a wounded fighter in the back row for example, he/she is rendered completely useless. So why not have some more single target supports like shielding an ally or actively using a shield to block a part of the next incoming attack(s) within 1 second. Some healing ability over time that is maybe banished when taking damage would enable a comeback of hurt chars without fiddling in the inventory too much or prepared stuff and without being too mighty. Getting close to the end of the game, switching the position of characters becomes obsolete. The classes specialize in their tasks, so a mage immediately bursts in the front row.

Apropos fiddling in inventory. Why is there no belt of 2-3 item slots next to each character's combat ui? This would allow the fast use of some necessary flasks or bombs. And please have a weapon swap like in Diablo 2 - Lord of Destruction where a character can have two sets of weapons/shields, they only use one at a time but you can quickly change it with a hotkey/button. That's particularly desirable for your archer rogues because they are melee-ranged-hybrids that often need to switch.

Having chosen hard difficulty, I expected some serious action. This wish was only partly satisfied. It seemed like the attack/defense stats were just heightened or those of the hero party reduced. The enemies lacked abilities and rather created their pressure by being beefy. Everytime only one enemy was left, I danced with it in circles for eternities. In general, each type of foe could be beaten with this move except the lightning-speed wasps and the stationary octopus arms (which you can even easilier come by with, stepping forward and back). The ice lizard caves were pointless. It only caused to run numerous times to the crystal. The highly restricted movement and narrow dungeons combined with the tankyness of enemies lead to game over once you are surrounded. However, getting in this position is kind of random and you do not really have a possibility to see the enemies' movements behind your back. Some more abilities like means of relocation (changing location with that of an enemy or hopping two fields forward for example) could have made a difference. Additionally, at the moment, as soon as an enemy starts to move, it already counts as having the target place occupied, therefore blocking off the player. You should have some split-second to interfere, claiming that position for yourself and nudging back the competitor. The fight against the ogre in level 6 is very boring since he possesses loads of hitpoints, on the other hand does not pose a threat. Distribute more abilities and unique behaviors. The ogre could charge up 1-2 seconds to smash the ground (all 8 fields or more) around him, thereby requiring a change of pace and gaining new chances for his assault attack. Include more field-based, chess-like mechanics and temporary buffs.

I do not like elemental spells that much. Shock and fire were virtually the same except dealing a different damage type. Suchlike classifications turn the combat selective. High difficulty should particularly require the combination and synergy. But seeing the skill trees and later gameplay, I got the feeling that it would have been better to max 1-2 attributes because fights were that simple. Also, poison was useless. You only infected yourself or blocked off paths, limited your view and got less damage out of it + over time, does not stack. Should have inflicted the disease debuff on enemies to have some unique meaning.

Randomity: More than 30% evasion sucks. Especially since the attack cooldowns are rather high and there are more chance-based effects. It does not make fun when your tactics are destroyed by pure randomness and battles are protracted. You still pay the energy. Damage calculation features a large range too. The balancing weakness is well visible on hard difficulty. When fighting against the ogre in level 6 for example, most of the time you deal 0 damage, even critical strikes can do 0 damage but sometimes a normal blow accomplishes around 10 from the same weapon without energy. More than tripling the amount with passive skills is just nonsense.

Equipment flexibility: Currently, you find a new best weapon, shield or piece of cloth once in a while and abandon the old one as it is rendered useless/superfluous. Add something like durability to equipment items in order to force the player to keep a variety, managing where to deplete this resource. It would grant a meaning to those mountains of lances and bulwarks you gain from skeleton soldiers. Make different versions of melee skeletons, carrying different standard weapons. Also place more loot in general. Particularly the early levels lack flexibility in all aspects.
Although the game features some freedom in which order to pass the rooms and merges the paths together, it would have been good to make the player pick a stage once or twice out of two levels optionally and have some longer backtracks by having to revisit old places.

To a big part, the levels are very dark. Would not recommend it to my brother since his eyes are rather bad. There is no internal gamma/lumina/contrasts setting. Even with good vision, it would surely look better with more small light sources. Roots on walls and the herb items could emit some mystical light since they possess special effects and are ingredients of potion brewing. Torches on the ground should burn too and in general, you should be able to see the state of a torch without putting them in a hand, icon and model should not change in inventory/ground. Clicking with a torch on a wall holder should swap an existing torch immediately.

One thing I really miss in this dungeon crawler are speeches and comments of the party. Its less vivid and you do not get impressions of the characters you play. Then again, you do not really have story progress. There are sound issues. The BGM is very subtle, there is no battle theme. Some sounds are sticking out in volume and pattern. At least have different hurt/death sounds for different races and genders. The undead spearmen are too extreme. A single one coveys the impression that a whole group is walking. Light/Shadow spell have no sound/feedback at all.
There are not any cinematics or new scenarios in the game.

More unique keys and artifacts would be appreciated. It is better for writing walkthroughs and does not appeal as lame to have the tenth brass key.

Next to the editor, which is interesting for me, think about implementing simple multiplayer support as it would be an innovative step in this genre. PvP arenas, time race, special coop missions with team puzzles would enable new horizons in and with the chess-like environment. Also add a sandbox dungeon where you can test out all the spells/items/monsters/etc. of the game. Maybe make it available after having beaten the original campaign to prevent spoilers.

More stuff to add:
  • destructable walls
  • type of hidden switches on the floor/ceiling
  • custom death animations for each enemy type and leave a corpse behind or blood
  • some unprecise indicator how much life an adversary has left
  • more utility in abilities
Ending
SpoilerShow
I did not get the ending at all. I was sure that the undying one would be a giant Kraken because of the repetitive earthquakes, the Goromorg disciples and the everywhere spawning arms from beneath gratings. The prisoners could be fed/sacrificed to this monstrosity. I am not angry because this was not the case but I do not see how the portrayed cult or the remaining bestiary relates to the actual conclusion. When you imprison something, especially something as mechanical as this, you would not make a religion out of it nor build solvable puzzles, place keys everywhere etc. Until the end, instead of explaining the issue, you get stubbornly attacked as if your doing was righteous. Furthermore, why did they not just kill the thing themselves (since they had the ability to do it)? Why did the mountain collapse? I have completed the game without finding Toorum's remains, so I still assumed that the telepathic voice would be of him. How did the apparatus whisper anyway? What was the kings motivation now to throw you in these dungeons? The apparatus could not have pulled the strings either to lead the player through because then there would not have been scrolls like "You have proven worthy". Even in the final battle, the Order of Fire rather concentrated on taking the player down than stopping the device they guard. Not a thing was clarified like how you escaped or how you experienced your won freedom.
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gambit37
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by gambit37 »

TL;DR -- dude, that's way too long for a first post, and a negative one at that. Reduce it by 50%, then another 50%, and you might have some focused points worth discussing.
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Darklord
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Darklord »

Glad to hear you felt the game was worth the money, thanks for your suggestions! :)

Daniel.
A gently fried snail slice is absolutely delicious with a pat of butter...
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Flashheart
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Flashheart »

Sometimes a game 'just works'; it feels right, it plays right. Sometimes when too much is added, things can get 'muddy'. Grimrock IMHO feels right. The gameplay is awesome, it plays beautifully. It's addictive!

Sure I would have liked Clerics, and Elves, and stuff written on the walls that only Dwarves could read. I would have liked for pits not to be 'rewards'. When all's said and done though - Grimrock is still a mighty fine game.
WaterKnight
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by WaterKnight »

Two more things I forgot:

When receiving damage, some red splat is drawn above your life/mana bars. It covers them too much, which is why I had a hard time recognizing health in a poison cloud for example.

Would have wished for some mixed requirements when learning spells. After all, the runes you have to activate are from different areas.

Image

Have caught the idea that top left stands for fire, top right for air, bottom left for earth and bottom right for ice. Was also derivable from the bombs. Turning a spell into a missile requires air for example. So would have found it logical to have fireball, iceball and poison ball require some minor points in air or for the strong frozen impale take some knowledge in earth.

@Flashheart: Have not said that a cleric class should be implemented but some supportive teamwork tasks are missing that would shape combat less one-dimensional. A real cleric would probably not fit because of the criminal history. As for races like elves or dwarves, I could not care less because as I have stated, you do not get any insight on the characters anyway and the gameplay differences are minor.
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Merethif
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Merethif »

WaterKnight wrote:Do not take me wrong. The game was very worth its money in my opinion and pleased me in general.
After reading your whole post these first sentences don't sound credible. Generally you said EVERYTHING sucks (skills, classes, spells, items, inventory management, dungeons, monsters spawning, sounds, story) so may I ask what pleased you?! I can't think of anything you haven't already mentioned as badly designed. Was it a joke or something? It's like talking with a friend and saying: Do not take me wrong. I enjoy your company and I'm pleased with our friendship, but I think you are greedy, mean and not supportive. I can't count on you. Also you're irresponsible, you often hurt my feelings, you can't be trusted and you give away all my secrets. You don't share any of my interests, and we have nothing to talk about. Not only you're smelly, but also yoy have ugly voice.
WaterKnight wrote:I do not quite get why swinging weapons draws energy or those amounts of energy considering the low regen.
Because swinging weapons draws energy. It's energy, not mana. Think of it as stamina. Plus it makes every stat at least somewhat important to every class.
WaterKnight wrote:At the moment, when putting a wounded fighter in the back row for example, he/she is rendered completely useless.
He can throw, shoot and use reach weapon. Seems perfectly fine for me.
WaterKnight wrote:Some healing ability over time that is maybe banished when taking damage would enable a comeback of hurt chars without fiddling in the inventory too much or prepared stuff and without being too mighty.
Healing is done with potions. The idea is to have to prepare potions between encounters. It's about being prepared. That's the concept.
WaterKnight wrote:Apropos fiddling in inventory. Why is there no belt of 2-3 item slots next to each character's combat ui? This would allow the fast use of some necessary flasks or bombs. And please have a weapon swap like in Diablo 2 - Lord of Destruction where a character can have two sets of weapons/shields, they only use one at a time but you can quickly change it with a hotkey/button.
Because it is old-school game and has been designed for people who want to enjoy old-school games, not Diablo II. Beside you have so few Skill point that there is no need to switch weapons because every character is usually efficient with only one weapon type. I wouldn't mind shared potion/bombs belt though.
WaterKnight wrote:That's particularly desirable for your archer rogues because they are melee-ranged-hybrids that often need to switch.
See above - no rogue should develop all skills at ones. I've finished games with 6 rogues so far and I never had a desire to switch a weapon: monk is a monk, assassin is an assassin, archer is an archer, axe thrower is an axe thrower. Why would my archer with 50 Missile Weapon switch to axe or dagger or whatever?! If you think switching weapons is important for rogues that's mean you don't understand the game design.
WaterKnight wrote:Randomity: More than 30% evasion sucks.
I believe Evasion is not counted as a percentage because my tank usually ends with Evasion above 100. I may be wrong though.
WaterKnight wrote:At least have different hurt/death sounds for different races and genders
There are different hurt sounds for different races. The minotaur's "moo" is rather hard to overheard.
WaterKnight
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by WaterKnight »

Merethif wrote:After reading your whole post these first sentences don't sound credible. Generally you said EVERYTHING sucks (skills, classes, spells, items, inventory management, dungeons, monsters spawning, sounds, story) so may I ask what pleased you?! I can't think of anything you haven't already mentioned as badly designed. Was it a joke or something? It's like talking with a friend and saying: Do not take me wrong. I enjoy your company and I'm pleased with our friendship, but I think you are greedy, mean and not supportive. I can't count on you. Also you're irresponsible, you often hurt my feelings, you can't be trusted and you give away all my secrets. You don't share any of my interests, and we have nothing to talk about. Not only you're smelly, but also yoy have ugly voice.
This is the my "negative" impressions thread. Criticism is your gain if you know how to use it. I am just being consequent and concentrate all points, which I think is better than working on my project for years, then announcing to change an existing concept and suddenly the audience mentions that that also nagged them. Being mentioned does not mean that everything is 100% hard important but even details have a right to be addressed. The first two sentences were added because I expected such a reply, to signalize that this is not a hate thread (why would I take the effort writing several paragraphs?). It is a chance, I can see the potential.
Merethif wrote:Because swinging weapons draws energy. It's energy, not mana. Think of it as stamina. Plus it makes every stat at least somewhat important to every class.
I have understood it as stamina and you still do not lose any when moving. My point was that mages suffer from this and other classes should rather have some active abilities that make use of it or turn it into a resource for the special strikes (or at least transform it to a smaller scale to make it deplete and regenerate faster). This also gives more feedback to display the energy's purpose on the other classes.
Merethif wrote:He can throw, shoot and use reach weapon. Seems perfectly fine for me.
Which does not quite work because you cannot change equipment that fast and the classes become specialized, so the effectiveness is very low. Does not fit either.
Merethif wrote:Healing is done with potions. The idea is to have to prepare potions between encounters. It's about being prepared. That's the concept.
Spamming potions without cooldown and limit is the concept? There should be some cross-overs. Eating food should restore a low amount of life/mana too for example. It would pose an alternative.
Merethif wrote:Because it is old-school game and has been designed for people who want to enjoy old-school games, not Diablo II. Beside you have so few Skill point that there is no need to switch weapons because every character is usually efficient with only one weapon type. I wouldn't mind shared potion/bombs belt though.
Why is there no text parser if you want to be oldschool? Maybe all floor panels should have a weight requirement, so you can place 20kg to realize it only gets activated when the player steps on it. Recently, I played Eye of the Beholder 1 and could not resurrect my characters. Seriously, things should be decided after meaningfulness. And you can do some compromise with the casual gamers who do not want to develop the program themselves while playing.
Merethif wrote:See above - no rogue should develop all skills at ones. I've finished games with 6 rogues so far and I never had a desire to switch a weapon: monk is a monk, assassin is an assassin, archer is an archer, axe thrower is an axe thrower. Why would my archer with 50 Missile Weapon switch to axe or dagger or whatever?! If you think switching weapons is important for rogues that's mean you don't understand the game design.
There is a time before late game and the effectiveness of specialization is exactly what I criticized because it renders fights too simple. In another thread I have read that dungeon crawlers should allow you to play the style you like. So I get punished trying to play hybrid that actually requires more skill? I do not mean that you should be able to play anything ridiculous like fighter with shuriken but there should be some cross-overs like putting a mage front row for an instant because of better resistances to magics for example.
Merethif wrote:I believe Evasion is not counted as a percentage because my tank usually ends with Evasion above 100. I may be wrong though.
The chance gets calculated in combat when comparing the attacker's accuracy value against the victim's evasion value. When I say that it should not cross the 30% mark, there are different approaches to solve that like cutting it off or converge it to it or just reduce the stats.
Merethif wrote:There are different hurt sounds for different races. The minotaur's "moo" is rather hard to overheard.
Ok but the death sound is very human. Excuse my incorrectness.
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Bees
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Bees »

You all should take criticism directed at a game that you didn't make less personally.
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Mire
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Mire »

Bees wrote:You all should take criticism directed at a game that you didn't make less personally.
Agreed, in all honesty some interesting points were brought up.

I think it would have been awesome if some of the walls had glowing mushrooms or something as a very dim (eerie) lightning.
Or enemies having 'special' attacks like the ogre ground smash that was suggested, or different variations of skeletons with 'unique' weapon skills kind of like your own party learns from their weapon trees.

I mean I don't agree with all of the points, but I can see where some of them are plausible and even beyond that open up a scope to other things / discussion.
I of Crimson Blood.
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Flashheart
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Re: My negative impressions and suggestions

Post by Flashheart »

I didn't take it personally at all. I was merely commenting that I feel Grimrock is pretty much a complete game. One that works well. Maybe some of the suggestions can be implemented in Grimrock 2. However it's possible that as features increase - gameplay decreases. Sounds weird, but could be true.

My comments about Clerics and Elves was me being wistful about said things - not necessarily related to the original post.
WaterKnight wrote:Have caught the idea that top left stands for fire, top right for air, bottom left for earth and bottom right for ice. Was also derivable from the bombs.
It's also derivable from the manual you got when you bought the game - you say it's worth the money, so I'll assume you bought it. ;)
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