2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

[Leto]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but I must admin that I like the strafing combat in Grimrock. If there is only one enemy, I could handle it easily. But there was always the tension, that another mob may drop in and take part in the fight to get me in trouble.

Maybe this idea has been posted before, but wouldn't it a kind of solution to improve enemy AI? I mean, when I strafe around an Ogre for some time, he might get the idea to alter his own strategy and go some tiles away, waiting for the player to approach. Or other fast enemies try to use the dungeon layout to attack from behind, retreat, attack, retreat etc.

I know I know, "just make a better AI", perhaps one of the hardest tasks in game development But I like this idea much more than deactivating the strafing, increase the hit range etc.

[Thels]

That could be cool. Not for the ogre, though, as he really hits way too hard. Have him place himself in a tactical advantage, and it's game over.

It would be tricky, though, since the mobs also need to place themselves so, that you can't simply take them out with ranged firepower.

[Spathi]

So, as I understand this thread, the solution would be trading blows without moving.

Nope you did not understand the thread.

I don't think anyone has proposed "not moving".

Basically my opinion is that the monsters need a way to clip you on the ear every so often when you use boring repetitive "i win" strategies.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2085&start=160#p24283

AI is an OK one if it had some other elements mixed. The monsters do 2x2 currently. If the monster had faster 2x2 programmed, then you would just move around each other faster with the computer becoming too fast for the players comfort at some stage. So you would think the AI would have to include more triggered randomness and hiding, but if the monster runs and camps in an alcove you can just treat it like a tentacle 1x3 win, if it runs away for a corridor then you can just shoot it while it does all that farting about, which is silly (unless it could heal and had backup I suppose, but then it would just get hard to code for and play).

[Thels]

There have been three or more suggested ways to do this and you can still move.
-Slow down movement when next to a monster and weaken monster.
-Pause before attack is made and weaken the first blow if you are in a new square else you get clobbered normally.
-If you run around a monster there could be a % chance he swipes you.

You mean these suggestions? Can't say I'm fond of them at all. They do nothing to increase tactics, just cause more punishment.

[Leto]

AI is an OK one if it had some other elements mixed. The monsters do 2x2 currently. If the monster had faster 2x2 programmed, then you would just move around each other faster with the computer becoming too fast for the players comfort at some stage. So you would think the AI would have to include more triggered randomness and hiding, but if the monster runs and camps in an alcove you can just treat it like a tentacle 1x3 win, if it runs away for a corridor then you can just shoot it while it does all that farting about, which is silly (unless it could heal and had backup I suppose, but then it would just get hard to code for and play).

Well, just switch the words "monster" and "you" in your text

What I mean is, when the player is able to use the game mechanics to his advantage, the monster should also be able to do it. I know, that would be an ideal solution, not quite easy to do for sure. But for me, that would be the only "real" solution to the problem, some players seem to have. Furthermore, it does not have to be perfect, to be a good improvement to the gameplay.

I only hope the AI has been scripted, not hard-coded.

[Spathi]

I see what you are saying, they don't "dodge" 2x2, only attack "2x2". sry

AI currently is always a combination of scripted and randomized elements. Until they invent a brain.
(Oh you mean editable scripts. sry, lol)

just cause more punishment.

Stops the case of "no punishment" and Less punishment in some cases. It all depends on where you stack your assumptions, lol.
Tests your Armour during boring fights where the monsters don't stand a hope (nearly every fight). I see your side, if done too much it becomes very Plain Jane and just as boring.

I have only ever found one game that has never become boring though. Anyway that game relies on restricting freedom by... if you tried to advance too fast by killing the advanced robots you run out of good gear and batteries to run that gear, and a perfect sub game where the computer has the same starting randomized odds as you at the same equipment level (but you generally have a better or worse equipment level), but is a game of logical chicken to play out... he who moves first is at a disadvantage as he has shown his hand, he who moves too late could lose it all by running out of time.

This last bit is the key... "he who moves first is at a disadvantage as he has shown his hand, he who moves too late could lose it all by running out of time".

[Goffmog]

::yawn::

In this game, the dungon is the main event, the monsters are a sideshow. It's the exact opposite of all jRPGs and most modern western RPGs where the game is almost entirely about having lots of fights to gain xp and loot so that you can have bigger fights and get shinier loot, and the levels are nothing more than an art consideration. Grimrock is all about getting through the dungeon. It does not matter whether being able to outsmart the monsters is more effective or more important than being able to outlast them in a fair fight. All that matters is that the encounters can be got past and that they're varied and fun.

This thread has me worried we're going to see more people trying to rewrite the game as a hack 'n' slash cleptomania fest than people making taxing new dungeon levels. Hope the main dicerolling parts of the combat system and the general combat behaviour of the monsters are all hardcoded!

[Thels]

Hope the main dicerolling parts of the combat system and the general combat behaviour of the monsters are all hardcoded!

How can you seriously wish for less possible customization? :S If there's people making type A dungeons and people making type B dungeons, and you prefer type B dungeons, then making it impossible to create type A dungeons will NOT cause more type B dungeons to appear.

Yes, the combat is actually the smaller part of LoG, and the puzzles are more important. However, the combat is still a part of LoG, so even if it's not the biggest part, it never hurts to improve on it.

And quite a few people are hoping to improve it without touching the core mechanics, but instead by adding monsters with different skills and by adding dungeon levels where the default 2x2 fighting is not possible due to corridor layout.

[Isaac]

...and by adding dungeon levels where the default 2x2 fighting is not possible due to corridor layout.

But that sounds pretty grim.

[Thels]

...and by adding dungeon levels where the default 2x2 fighting is not possible due to corridor layout.

But that sounds pretty grim.

Well, obviously you need to make it so that the players can still win the fight, just by using something else than 2x2 strafing. Kiting around a small block could work, or maybe kite something back until it's dead.

Or maybe the puzzle is to create a 2x2 room for you to strafe around in so you can beat the monster. Like having a cramped space with pits with an Ogre behind the next door. The only way for you to beat that Ogre is to create a 2x2 grid for yourself somewhere.