Torchlight Crawlers

[Wizard of Makan]

It has been said that the most excellent 'Legend of Grimrock' is an "old school dungeon crawler".

While somewhat true, in a broader sense, a closer look shows us that the often mentioned 'Bard's Tale' and 'Wizardry' aren't really like Grimrock.
Sometimes a name sticks, and today, most people just use the term "dungeon crawler" to describe nearly all classic rpgs, before basically too much cut scenes, action elements and 3d changed modern rpg gaming.

So what is Grimrock?
The spiritual successor to 'Dungeon Master', which, for all practical reasons, invented a sub genre - which I call " Torchlight Crawler ".

What is a Torchlight Crawler, then?
It's an RPG that is defined primarily through the following three elements:
- you fight, explore and solve puzzles in a real time, first person view
- you control a hero or a party that has to be carefully managed and improved
- there are practical, survival like concerns like food & light management

secondary elements include:
- a grid based, 90° movement through a maze of mostly corridors and small rooms
- a "magic" or similar system that has it's own rules/resources and functions as an alternative to some physical actions; eg combat
- a continously linked 'dungeon world' with no changes of mechanical pacing

By that definition, Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Dragon Wars, Might and Magic, Ultima, Crystals of Arborea, Wasteland, Fate, Ambermoon, SSI Goldbox Games etcetc aren't Torchlight Crawlers.

What about other Torchlight Crawlers? Are there any?
pre 1987: there are a few interesting ones, but since DM (below) reinveted the genre and casts such a long shadow, I'll mention just a few:
Treasures of Tarmin, 3D Monster Maze, Phantom Slayer, 3-Demon
1987: *Dungeon Master* - this game rocked the world (literally, not many western games have made such an impact in japan);
Everything was kickass: The interface, technical aspects, sound, atmosphere, game design, gameplay...
It's easily one of the best games of all time and can be enjoyed even today in its classic form.
1989: Bloodwych, Chaos Strikes Back
1990: Xenomorph, Eye of the Beholder, Captive
1991: Eye of the Beholder 2, Knightmare
1992: Black Crypt, Dungeon Master: Theron's Quest, Abandoned Places, Waxworks
1993: Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder 3, Dungeon Master 2:Skullkeep, Hired Guns, Dungeon Hack, Abandoned Places 2, The Legacy
1994: Liberation: Captive 2, Crystal Dragon
1995: Stonekeep, Anvil of Dawn
1998: (Dungeon Master Nexus)
1999: Demise: Rise of the Ku'tan

2000 -2010: not much here, there's Undercroft, Mazes of Fate and Mazes of Fate DS, the Quest

finally, in 2012, Legend of Grimrock rekindles the old spirit with a vengeance!

Which are worth taking a look? Should I even try to play old, pixelated stuff?
As mentioned before, Dungeon Master is pretty great even today, as long as you can cope with the aesthetics and some old school game design (like little to no information feedback - but this actually worked pretty well in Dungeon Master)

Chaos Strikes Back is a great sequel/addon, as it's very hard to chew on; you need to be a competent and not easily frustrated Dungeon Master veteran to have fun here. But then it delivers.
Dungeon Master 2 offered too little, too late. It is a sad game if you compare how much innovation DM brought to gaming.
I cannot recommend it whole heartedly. For the enthusiast: It's not a bad game.

Eye of the Beholder is mentioned often, yet if falls short for many reasons.
The only real improvement was in terms of graphics.
Gameplay, quality of puzzles, balance etc was often just mediocre.
The AD&D license -the big selling point- was actually quite a hindrance in terms of game design.
Most gamers remember it fondly because of nostalgic reasons.

The real heir in terms of game design and quality is in my opinion - Lands of Lore. This game, too, is worth checking out even today.
Torchlight Crawlers gain little but lose much from an "overworld" with forests and cities.
This game pulls it off and also offers some interesting design choices that ultimately work well together :
-character and party selection minimal
-shared inventory
-tightly woven story with party members experiencing all of it and even commenting on it
-fluid party roster, guest character come, go, even die!
-there are also some very interesting secrets (you enter the top level of the tower with a cube, but you can also finish it without one if you are a masochist; you can also dublicate items near the end)

Black Crypt was also decent and is probably a good compromise in terms of graphics and gameplay.
Memories are fuzzy when it comes to Stonekeep, so no clear recommendation from me.
[As of now, I still have to check out Anvil of Dawn and also a handful of others from the list]

What about 3-D? What about Ultima Underworld?
There are a few reasons why "true" 3-D games are excluded from the list: There aren't a lot of them and the majority just isn't very good.
Like most early 3-D games, they aged terribly - and 3d was often their selling point and major focus!
The major combat mechanic, which relies on jogging back-and-forth, is broken. If you think running around monsters in a 2x2 grid is broken, you don't even want to look into this.
Also, with 3d, the element of shooting comes easily and changes/highjacks the spirit of the crawler or even rpg-game.

Entries here include: the two 'Ravenloft' games (1994+95), Menzoberranzan(1994), TES Battlespire (1997); maybe even Shadowcaster (1993) or Robinson's Requiem (1994)

The only game, apart from Ultima Underworld 1+2, that can be recommended here is Arx Fatalis from 2002.
You have but one character, and you can try different builds. The magic system is very interesting and especially later rewarding to explore. The setting and atmosphere is great. Arx Fatalis has a (still) fresh and unique feel.



PS: PLEASE SHARE OPINIONS AND OTHER TORCHLIGHT CRAWLERS
does anybody know about: Descend, Entombed, Dungeon Eye, Cardhalia ?

[Thels]

Eye of the Beholder is mentioned often, yet if falls short for many reasons.
The only real improvement was in terms of graphics.
Gameplay, quality of puzzles, balance etc was often just mediocre.
The AD&D license -the big selling point- was actually quite a hindrance in terms of game design.
Most gamers remember it fondly because of nostalgic reasons.

While it's true that the AD&D system wasn't all that great for combat, I wouldn't call the graphics it's only real perk. There are various things in EoB1 and especially EoB2 that brought the world alive, that I missed even in LoG, such as being able to recruit NPCs, "cutscenes", some dialogue.

[Verus]

Don't forget about the best dungeon crawler of the 2000s!

[Merethif]

I agree that Dungeon Master and Lands of Lore were most epic games and I enjoyed both very much.
I wish LoG has class system more similar to those two games (every character has all three/four classes, and his/her action determine which class is levelling up and how he/she is developing)

Actually I didn't liked shared inventory in LoL. Looking for a certain item by scrolling a belt was extremely uncomfortable. That's the only flaw of LoL though.

LoL also featured interesting selection of races like Hulines or Thomgogs (I only wished there were a possibility to have a Gorkha in a party).
If I were any better in modding I'm sure introducing Hulines and Thomgogs to LoG would be on my "to do" list

[Thels]

I think races are really easy to implement. All you are going to need are a few avatars, some sounds, and a couple of stats, then just enter them into the correct .Lua file.

[billy777]

PS: PLEASE SHARE OPINIONS AND OTHER TORCHLIGHT CRAWLERS
does anybody know about: Descend, Entombed, Dungeon Eye, Cardhalia ?

BloodLust - Shadowhunter is another "Indie" dungeon crawler in development - (it's Vampire themed and sort of looks like a sequel to Masquerade Bloodlines... but actually plays more like a dungeon crawler)

Its not as polished as Grimrock (it's not party-based or gridbased either) but has a couple similar features - such as plenty of secret walls, traps, poison gas spitting snake statues, timed doors, floorswitches,etc.

There's 3 playable classes similar to the standard mage, rogue and warrior types (witch, criminal, thug) but I think there is only going to be 3 races Vampire, Dhampire (half vampire/half human) and human (ShadowHunter)

Its also third person (but can zoom into first person too) and all loot is random.

Not sure if it's going to be as cool as LOG but there is a free playable demo on the BloodLust website that's fun!

[Marak]

Atlas actually published a game for the Nintendo DS called "The Dark Spire" which is, if memory serves, almost a textbook Torchlight Crawler. The only thing missing is a hunger mechanic, but it has the rest: a hub town; a huge tower that you explore floor-by-floor, lighting is an issue, you can create a party of 4 with the various classes represented, the game is damn hard, with gear upgrades and money being scarce; and pit traps and other minor puzzles litter the tower.

Oh crud... by your definition it's not a true crawler because it has random battles and turn-based combat. Still, it reminded me a LOT of a mix of the earlier Might and Magic games and something like Eye of the Beholder.

[Disasterrific]

Just out of interest, where does Etrian Oddysey fit in with this?

[billyh]

I see what you mean with the current definitions.. but if anything should be considered a quintessential "Dungeon Crawler", it should be this game and games like Stonkeep (basically, the torchlight crawlers).

Maybe the other games need a new category!

[Darklord]

Personally I'd suggest that DM/EoB/LoG etc are pure Dungeon Crawlers, and are exactly what I think of when I hear the term, Dungeon Crawler.

If you look at the Wiki on the subject,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_crawl

Here's a quote from it,

Some distinguish "dungeon crawlers" from rogue-likes and RPGs with stories and character-interaction, while others use the term to describe any game which features ample amounts of dungeon exploration (including Zork, Zelda and tabletop RPGs). More recently the term has come to mean 1st person RPGs, particularly ones which are aligned to a grid system and can be mapped on graph paper.

So LoG is a pure Dungeon Crawler by wiki definition as it is grid based and can be mapped on grid paper. It's other games that perhaps shouldn't really be called Dungeon Crawlers.

Daniel.