Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to come!]

[rakenan]

the way it is now is so unreasonable, that i'm not sure if it's a bug and is going to be repaired, or if it's not a bug (but going to be repaired anyway ...

the current system is not unreasonable at all,

then please explain the system to me.

from my point of view, if a novice cook is making a soup, and he does everything himself, he learns much more (gains much more experience), than if he would be making a soup with 3 other novice cooks, where one only cut the potatoes, another only added spices, another one prepared meat, and another one took care of the pot while on the stove. maybe a stupid example, but i can't see, how somebody could gain some amount of experience doing some work, and then gaining the same amount of experience when doing 4 times more work. please explain what is reasonable about that. thanks.

If a novice cook is making soup, and does everything himself, does he learn less because three other novice cooks are also making soup? Fighting is not cooking. You don't divide up the job that way. You don't have one guy going "OK, I'll watch for when he moves next to us and turn us to face him if I have to, Fred you attack him when he does. Ally, you strafe us out of the way before he can attack us back. Jimmy, you watch and make sure no other monsters are coming to get in the way." The whole party is doing all of that stuff. Having played as Toorum, I can assure you that you don't learn any more about having to fight a monster in a particular situation by having it take four times as long, and I'm profoundly unconvinced that our characters would either. There's only so much you can learn-by-doing from a single monster. Once you've learned it, you have nothing to lose by having teammates take their turns to learn from it as well.

The only real unreasonableness in the Grimrock experience system (other than the likely bug of assigning experience to slots) is inherent in the whole concept of experience points. That's not worth really even mentioning, where your cook would learn nothing about chopping potatoes, adding spices, preparing meat or taking care of a cookpot until the moment the soup was finished.

[dnk]

Having played as Toorum, I can assure you

you can't assure me because you were just playing. you were fighting 4x longer with Toorum's axe.

that you don't learn any more about having to fight a monster in a particular situation by having it take four times as long

so you kinda suggest, that we should the get EXP points only once or twice for each kind of monster we kill. after killing 1-2 spider we just learnt how to kill them an no experience points earned anymore
have any of you guys (who say that the system is fair now) ever practiced some martial art, or something with a weapon?
or at least playing a piano? practicing anything like that longer for sure gives you more experience. killing a mob is not studying physics. it's physical activity. and practice makes perfect with those things. and practice takes time, so i still (even after reading and considering all your replies, and thanks for them) think that if a hero fights 4 times longer/harder (than he was when 3 other heroes participated), he should get 4 times more experience.

[dnk]

You're actually making the entire game harder upon yourself by trying to kill every single mob with every one of your characters, holding back on your most powerful attacks. If you would let it slip, and just work your way through, you'll have an easier time.

but the EXP system makes you play like that.
1) when i play, i try to do the best i can, and if this is the best way, then i just do it.
2) the system is not fair in all cases (already explained that at least twice in this thread). it's fair only in the case, when everyone touches the enemy. so you either do that or you're screwed.

(btw i let it slip when i finished the game first time, when i didn't know how the EXP points are divided. eneded up with considerably weaker party of heroes, than i play with now.)

[oodyboo]

but the EXP system makes you play like that.
1) when i play, i try to do the best i can, and if this is the best way, then i just do it.

The EXP system does nothing to make you play like that. You are forcing this upon yourself.
It's arguably not the best way, since you're complaining about playing this way.

2) the system is not fair in all cases (already explained that at least twice in this thread). it's fair only in the case, when everyone touches the enemy. so you either do that or you're screwed.

You're not screwed. That's yet another ridiculous hyperbole that make some of these threads so long. The weaker monsters that die quickly also offer little exp, and even the characters that don't participate get half. So one of your characters misses 30-45xp? Just kill an extra dinosaur on level 9 and everyone gets 500xp, that's enough to make up for over 10 kills where not everybody gets full exp -- and the guys that did get full exp will have 500xp extra!

If anything this system makes sense, as when you are able to easily kill creatures in one or two hits, maybe you should be getting less exp. Even with the irrelevant cook analogy, cooking the same dish over and over has diminishing returns for one's cooking skill. In that respect, the Grimrock exp system is very generous.

(btw i let it slip when i finished the game first time, when i didn't know how the EXP points are divided. eneded up with considerably weaker party of heroes, than i play with now.)

My first play through I also played like an OCD perfectionist, making sure everyone got full exp. My second play through I didn't bother worrying about it at all, and my second party was considerably stronger. It has a lot more to do with your player skill and your character build than a few exp that will only possibly make a one level difference (3 skill points and a few hp/energy) in your character's level at the end of the game... after which their exp and levels no longer matter at all.

It was also a lot faster and more enjoyable not worrying about everyone hitting every monster, so I would argue that this is a better way to play the game.

And if you still insist on making yourself fight the way you describe, then just have your other characters toss rocks/knives to tag the weaker monsters before you hit it with your strong attacks. Problem solved.

One last point, you can always mod the way EXP is distributed if rationality continues to escape you.

In conclusion, there is absolutely no need for the base game to change the way EXP is distributed, beyond fixing the minor slot changing bug.

[Zo Kath Ra]

As most players have noticed, their party members level at different rates at one point or another. This is easily explained in the users manual that members MUST participate in the dispatch of a mob in order to get full [100%] exp, otherwise 50% will be given.

That explains the manner of Julius Caesar's assassination.

[hannamarin]

Quiver - Arrows or Quarrels
This would allow all arrows to be in one place - thereby one would not have to guess as to which box or sack had been used. Perhaps this could be set up with a ready arrow/quarrel - this would then continue using these arrows/quarrels until used up and then continue with the next type. Alternatively a random element could be used which would fire off any of the arrows/quarrels in no particular order.
Strength
Either a higher starting amount as standard or higher strength bonuses through level increase for all classes - there is a lot of items lying around and until you know that you do not need them - one tends to carry them around.
Cool Down Time
This should be reduced - as monsters were able to have too many hits compared with the amount I could do.
Traits
Addition of extra traits through level advancement.
Mages
More powerful spells or increased power through level advancement. ( I found that I was using my fighter and rogue far more than mages due to the weak spell level. More use of mages in general - except for firing off the odd spell there really was not much for them to do.
Exp Points
This did not bother me - when I saw that a particular character was lower - I used him more and built up his exp points.
Class
Addition of a priest ?

Addition of more useful spells and potions. I never used the arrow spells, the invisibility or darkness spells. Potions have color in the dungeon as well as in backpack. Speed potion to do with speed rather than cooldown time.
The fireburst spell was practically useless and generally the spells did not last long enough. Especially the light spell which should have been brighter and longer lasting with a higher spellcraft level.

[Encephalon]

Quiver - Arrows or Quarrels
This would allow all arrows to be in one place - thereby one would not have to guess as to which box or sack had been used. Perhaps this could be set up with a ready arrow/quarrel - this would then continue using these arrows/quarrels until used up and then continue with the next type. Alternatively a random element could be used which would fire off any of the arrows/quarrels in no particular order.

Or you could just keep the arrows in your backpack and store other items in sacks and boxes. Though I see how a quiver could be usefull.

Strength
Either a higher starting amount as standard or higher strength bonuses through level increase for all classes - there is a lot of items lying around and until you know that you do not need them - one tends to carry them around.

The characters can't, and shouldn't, be supermen. That's some of the part of dungeon crawlers; equipment management. Some things you need, and a lot of things you don't. Heavier stuff, like armor, can be dropped once you find a better item. Items that may be usefull or important later are most often lightweight items.

Cool Down Time
This should be reduced - as monsters were able to have too many hits compared with the amount I could do.

Bigger weapons take longer time to ready and swing. There's always a tradeoff; slow with heavy hits or fast with light hits.

Traits
Addition of extra traits through level advancement.

Personally I think not. If so, they should be somehting that would fit with what the character has been through since it was created. I don't see how a character at level 10 suddenly get the trait: "Demon ancestor."

Mages
More powerful spells or increased power through level advancement. ( I found that I was using my fighter and rogue far more than mages due to the weak spell level. More use of mages in general - except for firing off the odd spell there really was not much for them to do.

Some spells pack a punch, like fireball and lightning bolt, and they do more damage with more skill in the respective branch (if I'm not mistaken). A larger spellpool would also be welcome.

Class
Addition of a priest ?

This has been debated in a few threads, and ould be welcome. In one of his notes Toorum mention the Temple of Nex, and a temple should have priests. So there's a good starting point to craft out a healer class.

Addition of more useful spells and potions. I never used the arrow spells, the invisibility or darkness spells. Potions have color in the dungeon as well as in backpack. Speed potion to do with speed rather than cooldown time.

The arrow spells were quite nice as I had a bow/crossbow rogue. The Invisibility spell worked quite nicely, and on my second run it aided the Assassination rogue well. Also usefull for some scouting.

The fireburst spell was practically useless and generally the spells did not last long enough. Especially the light spell which should have been brighter and longer lasting with a higher spellcraft level.

I used Fireflash a lot and found it very usefull early on against the skeletal soldiers, especially the quads, as it was one of the one-rune spells. Later it was still usefull as it allowed the mage to be of some use when his energy was too low for more powerfull spells. I like the idea that the Light could become brighter with higher skill level. I missed the range and warmer light provided by the torch once I had found a need for all eight hands, other than a torch. Should have had a rope so I could tie a torch to one of the minotaur's horns.

[rakenan]

so you kinda suggest, that we should the get EXP points only once or twice for each kind of monster we kill. after killing 1-2 spider we just learnt how to kill them an no experience points earned anymore

Since I didn't actually suggest that in any way, no, I do not suggest it. I said "a particular monster" not "an entire breed of monster."

have any of you guys (who say that the system is fair now) ever practiced some martial art, or something with a weapon?
or at least playing a piano? practicing anything like that longer for sure gives you more experience. killing a mob is not studying physics. it's physical activity. and practice makes perfect with those things. and practice takes time, so i still (even after reading and considering all your replies, and thanks for them) think that if a hero fights 4 times longer/harder (than he was when 3 other heroes participated), he should get 4 times more experience.

Fairness and realism are not closely related concepts. The entire experience point system is unrealistic. In most RPG's, you don't learn anything from fighting a guy at all. You spar and spar and spar and then a few years later when he dies falling down the stairs after slipping on a banana peel, you suddenly get experience points - which you use to level your alchemy skill. Abstracting "you have learned something from what you just did" to "you have received a specific quantity of experience points which at some point down the line will help make you better at doing something that may or may not have anything to do with what you just did, from what you just did" is a pretty big stretch. Insisting that the monster is carrying around a specific supply of these "experience points," and that your characters go through its pockets after the kill and divvy them up, does not make the system any more realistic - or really, any more fair.

The Legend of Grimrock system is fair. It rewards you for having your characters participate, it has at worst pretty minor negative implications when one of your characters cannot participate (unless you are going out of your way to break the system in order to prove that it is broken), and it keeps characters within reasonable leveling bounds in the face of players who would absolutely 100% abuse a system that would allow them to stack experience on a particular character. It makes for a fine game.

It does not need change.

[oodyboo]

From http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2012-05-07/