D&D 4th Ed Good or Bad?

[seebs]

I laugh at people who say 'its become an MMO', because its nothing like that. It's just easier, more streamlined, and less beardy.

I play and enjoy 4th ed, but I can see where those who say it has MMO elements in are coming from.

Marking is a very MMO inspired idea, it is very similar to taunting and such. Also the classes have been split into types which again is MMO like, Defenders are tanks, Strikers are DPR etc.

Daniel.

We've been talking about those roles in tabletop games since before any MMO other than Island of Kesmai was out. We used to call tanks "bricks", but the same idea applied. Similarly, we've had words for stuff like explorers and instigators (the player roles) for a long time; 4E just put it in the books so you didn't have to know to go read old Dragon magazines to learn how player dynamics work.

I think that's what bugs me about the "turned into an MMO" thing -- this isn't MMO-exclusive stuff, this is stuff that's been around in gaming forever, it's just that apparently some people didn't know about it until MMOs came along.

[eharper256]

Umhmm, what they call "marking" used to exist before MMO's. It's just that 4e codified it directly into the rules.

In fact, in a early 3rd edition game I ran years ago, I had a half-elf barbarian who exclusively wasted Move Actions to use intimidate checks on monsters to effectively say "come on! I'm here, bitches!" and ruffle himself up and look the most threatening target. I allowed it to work on intelligent monsters back at the time if they failed a Will save because it was actually pretty clever and frankly he was the most damaging anyway until the Wizard was like 7th level (I may have been lenient to a degree too, since he was the only brick in a party of squishies, but oh well...)

To be fair, I did also see a Fighter in another 3e game who only had move and attack as his actions (snore). But all the stuff a 4e Fighter does mostly could have been mimic'ed back in the day with creative roleplaying and skillchecks. And figuring out how to do that actually made playing those characters more fun. Heck, I even had a guy who used the "Use Rope" skill to lasoo enemies and pin them down to stab them. Again, it was funny and a nice thinking, so if they failed reflex, I allowed it.

As I say, the fact that its just now in the rules, to me, is a great thing, because it means less creative people get to go "OH! My fighter can DO THAT?!".

It's not to say 4e is without its flaws, because it certainly has a handful. And lets not talk about Essentials. But in general, I always saw it as a very positive step for the system.

[Darklord]

Umhmm, what they call "marking" used to exist before MMO's. It's just that 4e codified it directly into the rules.

Sure but for many people it feels very MMO like. More so than it used to.

Like I say I play 4th edition, it's my favourite edition, so I'm converted.

Daniel.

[t0tem]

Having trouble keeping up with eharper. Is it not more like an MMO now or was it less like an MMO before but just as much?

[eharper256]

I think part of the problem is that the MMO barely existed at the time of 3rd Edition coming out (Everquest 1/Ultima Online may have been out, but that was about it). Whereas, its become a big thing since then, and so comparisons become natural.

Is it not more like an MMO now or was it less like an MMO before but just as much?

I don't get it? You're asking if it was more like it now, or less like it before? Isn't that a double negative statement?

Frankly, PNP RPGs are not at all like MMO's. Not with 4th, not before, not ever, really... Because a GM and the playing group make every session of a PNP quite unique.

The little thing that people latch onto in 4e, that apparently makes it like MMO's, is that there are 'party roles', like Defender (Tank/Brick), Striker (DPS), Leader (Healing/Buff), and Controller (mob destruction). However, this is a pretty arbitary assignment~ you can change your character fairly throughly with some intelligent power/skill choices that can give you multiple roles (and then theres multiclassing), and you very rarely need all the roles to make a good party anyway, it just helps a little bit.

I suppose you can also say that having Encounter Powers is somewhat equivalent to having abilities with 'cooldown' as well. Except its not, really, because you're not carefully watching for them to recharge; its a semi-strategic choice- once its gone, its gone, so is now the best time to throw it out?

But, thats about it in terms of similarity.

[seebs]

The daily/encounter/at-will thing really does help with the general problem of "well, that was our high level spells, now we're useless".

[eharper256]

The daily/encounter/at-will thing really does help with the general problem of "well, that was our high level spells, now we're useless".

Which was especially hilarious for early wizards, who'd be like 'right, that's my 2 magic missiles for the day, guys, I'm off!'. Or he'd carry a crossbow and be a secondary archer for that circumstance. But that still seemed silly for a wizard, much like a Rogue backstabbing with a warhammer/ballista because he technically could in 3e.

Its one of the things Pathfinder also fixed, Wizards at least have free staff telekinesis in PF to slap people with.

Still, I prefer the at-will magic missles/rays of frost/thunderwaves in 4e. Feels more useful.

[Arctor]

Nothing to add, but I just have to jump in and say... what a great thread. Thank you all! I've been digging into 4E but have not run anything yet...

[Darklord]

I've been digging into 4E but have not run anything yet...

Give it a go, D&D of any sort is fun IMO.

I can recommend, the new red box, it's simple and comes with everything you need to play, I just played through it recently and it's good if a little lacking in actual roleplaying. (Fun combats though)



Daniel.

[eharper256]

Nothing to add, but I just have to jump in and say... what a great thread. Thank you all! I've been digging into 4E but have not run anything yet...

Good luck with running it. It can be a bit tough your first few sessions as you learn your way around all of the powers, concepts, and status effects; but after that trials period, it actually works like a charm.