2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

[Darklord]

People are rarely happy.

Daniel.

[Callipygous]

Before buying the game I read a few reviews and watched a couple videoss. The game lined up perfectly with my expectations. I hope, mechanically, they don't change a dammed thing. I'd be more than happy to shell out $15 every few months for a new dungeon with the exact same game play mechanics found in Grimrock.

[Curunir]

I am! I got exactly what I expected out of Grimrock and I'm very very happy with it.

If people don't watch trailers, don't read re/previews and build their expectations on their personal visions and desires only, they will almost always end up complaining.

[Edit] Ninja'd by Calli [/Edit]

[1varangian]

Now let's look at the suggestions made here:

Suggestions: [edited to sound less extreme]

- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you...

- Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking....

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances...

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

- Make charging monsters a bit smarter

Notice the part in red too, it is rather telling.

With the exception of the last suggestion, the logical conclusion is to make strafing ineffective. So these suggestions don't "Remove strafing" from the game entirely, they just make it a pointless tactic.

Thanks for making a reminder of the original suggestions. You're wrong though, in my version strafing would not be a pointless tactic.

1. You could still strafe slower monsters that are meant to be easy with the same success we now have
2. Moving in combat would never be pointless. Monsters move around, more appear etc. You need to react and position yourself with pits / walls / doors.
3. Against the average monster strafing excessively would still result in less attacks from them, to reward player skill. But it would not totally negate the monster's ability to attack and make defensive stats redundant.

The goal of the suggestions is to make single enemies meaningful without having to completely overpower them with stats. To make the fights feel more dangerous without having to put the player in a dead end every time to achieve that. To create more diverse combat mechanics and give enemies different flavors (some you strafe some you don't). And to make character building actually matter.

[oodyboo]

What's even more hilarious is that half these forums are complaining about timed puzzles and troublesome movement, the other half is complaining that strafing (which at Hard diff requires as much speed and precision as timed puzzles) is too easy.

I noticed that too.

Probably the hallmark of a very well designed game when some posters think it's too easy and others think it's too hard. As mentioned in a thread about a poll, most of the happy middle don't come to the forums to post. Some minor adjustments to be made of course, but Almost Human did a stellar job. Can't wait for more!

[BlueSpace]

Now let's look at the suggestions made here:

Suggestions: [edited to sound less extreme]

- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you...

- Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking....

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances...

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

- Make charging monsters a bit smarter

Notice the part in red too, it is rather telling.

With the exception of the last suggestion, the logical conclusion is to make strafing ineffective. So these suggestions don't "Remove strafing" from the game entirely, they just make it a pointless tactic.

Thanks for making a reminder of the original suggestions. You're wrong though, in my version strafing would not be a pointless tactic.

1. You could still strafe slower monsters that are meant to be easy with the same success we now have
2. Moving in combat would never be pointless. Monsters move around, more appear etc. You need to react and position yourself with pits / walls / doors.
3. Against the average monster strafing excessively would still result in less attacks from them, to reward player skill. But it would not totally negate the monster's ability to attack and make defensive stats redundant.

The goal of the suggestions is to make single enemies meaningful without having to completely overpower them with stats. To make the fights feel more dangerous without having to put the player in a dead end every time to achieve that. To create more diverse combat mechanics and give enemies different flavors (some you strafe some you don't). And to make character building actually matter.

1. Monsters already have different speeds and different attacks. Strafing is easier against certain types while ranged creeps don't allow you to kite them (move back a corridor).
2. Depends on the type of ability that they have. There are several suggestions and they would have different impacts. It would mostly boil down to finding a defensible position or some kind of bottleneck and tank there before the enemies get into melee range. Movement would probably happen before actual combat. Unless the enemy is very fast or snares you. In this case movement is entirely irrelevant.
3. What is the average monster? If you don't like the kiting then why would you only want to halfway remove it? So you kite most of the time and then you meet an enemy that forces you to tank? Sounds a bit inconsistent. Unless of course it is fairly frequent in which case you would effectively remove the kiting mechanic...

I also would suggest the following rule change for people that think stats like evasion/protection/health are meaningless: You're not allowed to manually save. The only saves that you are allowed to load are the autosaves. Just try that to get a feeling of how many times you really screw up the kiting... you might be surprised.

[Goffmog]

::yawn:: Character building undermines realtime flickscreen dungeon crawlers.

[Goffmog]

What's even more hilarious is that half these forums are complaining about timed puzzles and troublesome movement, the other half is complaining that strafing (which at Hard diff requires as much speed and precision as timed puzzles) is too easy.

I noticed that too.

Probably the hallmark of a very well designed game when some posters think it's too easy and others think it's too hard. As mentioned in a thread about a poll, most of the happy middle don't come to the forums to post. Some minor adjustments to be made of course, but Almost Human did a stellar job. Can't wait for more!

I think people are just moaning for the sake of it. There's this bizarre culture of number-balancing that's grown up around computer RPGs since the end of the golden era of the 90s, and especially with the advent of MMOs - as if what these people really want is a good accountancy simulator. More than half of all the discussions on RPG forums seem to be about "character builds" I had never even heard the term outside of pencil&paper roleplaying, before 2000. What's annoying people is that - at least in theory - being able to square dance enemies effectively is more powerful that having big numbers on your spreadsheet. The fact is that this is the gameplay of Grimrock, and it's intentional. Some people are having trouble with the fact that game works differently than they're used to. Strafing no more undermines any other aspect of gameplay than being able to jump over fireballs undermines collecting the big mushroom in Mario.

[Thels]

I actually use 2 tanks so that occasionally I can tank when needed. Sure, I strafe when it's 1 on 1 with a baddy, but I'm a little impatient, and usually step in on the side, hit, and step back instead of waiting for the mob to move in front of me, making me take the occasional hit. If I went out on full damage on all four characters, I'd have to play more careful, so I'm not so sure that that would mean I'd go faster.

Also, occasionally, when there's more than one mob around (like Enter Thy Grave), to back up so only one enemy can attack you at once, and then go all out on the mob while trying to take their hits. It's possible to tank & spank your way through Enter Thy Grave on hard if you bring 2xtank, 2xdps! It sure hurt, though.

Having tanks gives you the option that you don't always have to strafe, that you can sometimes take a mob head on instead of having to dance around 3-4 mobs at the same time.

[Isaac]

Well it looks like you both picked the wrong game to play then? How about finding a game that fits to you better instead of trying to mold this game into something else?

My gosh, what are you talking about? LoG is the most fun I've had in a game in years, why would I want to change anything about it?
The only thing I've suggested be changed is to have enemies that are directly behind the party skip their combat animation. I've followed the game since the middle of last year, and I'd have bought LoG at Skyrim's price.