Party of Titans most effective party uptoday

[Chiller]

The missile/thrown bonus at level 50 is 12 pts of attack.
The melee weapon bonus is 25.
The unarmed bonus is higher still (might be 50 pts).

It seems the progression is not linear, however.

The ranged weapon bonus is more than what you will get from just pumping strength and you attack at 150% speed with two projectiles at once (and extra chance to crit once you get to level 50). That's approximately a sh*tload of extra damage.

I don't disagree that focusing on ranged damage is a good way to kill things quickly and efficiently. But:

1) Using Fighters is not a good idea as they have no ranged weapon skills.
2) Putting points in something other than offensive skills is something you shouldn't do if you care about killing stuff. You simply don't NEED them. If you want to have decent defenses for the front row boost their Dex, invest in unarmed and dress them in lurker stuff.
3) High level melee fighters output more damage than ranged guys but they run out of energy faster and must engage in, well, melee range.
4) It might be possible to run 4 ranged rogues but it's probably more sustainable to use 3 (bow, xbow, thrown). I think 2 is optimal.

Note that thrown weapon damage is inferior to missiles and the number of throwing axes is quite low. You might actually run out of projectiles for all weapons when fighting the mechano-golems as they can soak a lot of damage.

[RedOwl]

At level 50 (!) you say you get 12 pts of attack bonus. Minotaur fighter strength 21 + aggressive is +10 attack FROM THE START OF THE GAME.

So you are trying to say that having if an average ranged attack is 10, with my starting bonuses its 20, with lvl 50 archer its 22. 10% difference vs 50 levels worth of skills?!

Fine, with double rate of fire and crits you have better dps. But dps is not needed, you need burst damage, because you need to move away from the enemy most of the time you can't gain that dps increase due to rate of fire.

However, we are looking at MASSIVE damage with no skills whatsoever against MASSIVE plus some at lvl 50 archer. What else can that lvl 50 archer AT THE END OF THE GAME invest into? Nothing much. I do comparable amount of damage AT THE START of the game and I have all the points to invest into a tank.

I'm at level 50 is a full armor line. If I want all 4 of them.

Can you drag one of your front row guys to the back once he is weak? I can. Your archers? Not so much.

You say melee weapon gets +25 attack at lvl 50. can you actually stand in take damage with maxed melee weapon skills at lvl 50? At the end of the game, mind you, its +25. Can you have this +25 from all 4 people? No, at best, you can have 2 front melee maxed fighters. But they wont be able to tank a thing at that level.

[Chiller]

At level 50 (!) you say you get 12 pts of attack bonus. Minotaur fighter strength 21 + aggressive is +10 attack FROM THE START OF THE GAME.

Why do you assume I don't have maxed strength and attack power traits on my archers? Because I actually do.

Fine, with double rate of fire and crits you have better dps. But dps is not needed, you need burst damage, because you need to move away from the enemy most of the time you can't gain that dps increase due to rate of fire.

Firing two projectiles at once is burst dps [resists urge to add expletive]. Having the extra attack speed actually comes into play despite your efforts to deny it. With extra attack speed you will be able to attack about every time a mob comes in line of fire. Without, you'll be waiting around a lot. This comes from my actual game play experience, btw.

You say melee weapon gets +25 attack at lvl 50. can you actually stand in take damage with maxed melee weapon skills at lvl 50? At the end of the game, mind you, its +25. Can you have this +25 from all 4 people? No, at best, you can have 2 front melee maxed fighters. But they wont be able to tank a thing at that level.

Well, are you actually going to stay and take damage? Protection only helps so much. Are you going to spend as much time resting as you do in combat? That kind of defeats the purpose of high damage output. Allowing mobs to actually attack you is very inefficient.

I don't think your party would survive the Fighter's Challenge, which is the only place where you can't avoid damage by moving around.

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Sadly, like most Internet conversations (and many real world ones), this one is not going anywhere. You had an idea for a party and figured out it was so magnificent you should defend it at all costs. Some people have expressed criticism, which you seem to have dismissed out-of-hand. I don't think you are in any way right, but I'm not likely to convince you. My contribution to this thread is done.

[Merethif]

Your idea sounds good, but I've found several issues:

1. DPS
I may be wrong but I think that:
- Minotaur Fighter with level 50 of Athletics has total +5 Strength bonus
- Minotaur Rogue with level of 50 Throwing Weapons has total +5 Strength bonus

...so their Attack Power in case of throwing weapons will be the same. But considering that Minotaur Rogue throws two missiles with one click, has 50% faster attack rate and double chance of scoring a critical hit, it seems like he has better DPS then Minotaur Fighter.

2. Supplies
Note that your throwing weapons/ammunition supplies are somewhat limited - with all four party members relying on missile/throwing weapons it may be difficult to not run out of ammo during encounter.

3. Armours availability
As far as I can tell, there is only one Valor set and two Plate sets available so your forth Minotaur will have to wear Chitin set (Light Armour).


I may try party made of four Minotaurs at some point but probably I'll mix two/three Fighters with two/one Rogue(s).

[Empyrean]

OP is stupid and doesn't understand how the game works.

High strength on a ranged character is standard practice. Diverting points from the weapon skill into Athletics to get a couple more points of strength hurts your damage output, because skill points in weapon skills matter more than skill points spent to boost stats via Athletics (which doesn't even give more strength than points in Throwing anyway, so what's the point, exactly?).

The damage bonus from strength is STR minus 10 divided by 2, rounded down. If you want to see how much of an impact your skill gives you, strip all your other gear and pick up a throwing knife. Subtract the strength bonus and the weapon's listed attack power, and everything you've got left is from the points in throwing skill. The vast majority of your attack power comes from your weapon skill. Strength really doesn't matter much by comparison, and even if it did, putting points into Athletics doesn't give you more Strength than points in Throwing.

Which brings me back to my original thesis: the OP is stupid and doesn't understand how the game works.

[RedOwl]

Some people are very smart, but they can't read well.

When you have your lvl 50 archer, I have lvl 50 armor which shoots slower.

When my first row is low on HP I can bring anyone from back to front and still have full tank and my damage does not decrease since they are all ranged

If ammo is not an issue for any lvl ranged rouge its not an issue for me too. Because you can't shoot more than one weapon, and arrows for crossbow and bow are different and there is more than one type of throwing weapon.

When you kite and your archer shoots 2 arrows (after high skill mind you) I can volley from all 4 right away from a distance. If you have melee at the front you can't do that.

All this "rogue" can shoot better and evade better is wrong. You need skill to do that. If you go for dodge you wont have high weapon skills, so my men shoot better. If you go for weapon skill you can't level dodge skill, so you wont have you tank, bonus evasion, and you can't even put in light armor because penalties will eat all your "amazing" dodge.

My men dont have any penalty to evasion due to low dex at the start. Bonus from gear on evasion is way more than any starging bonus of rogue and high dex. Armor skill doubles evasion on shield.

I have 4 guys which are good. You can AT BEST max out back row into weapon skills. Because you front row has to tank somehow. Oh wait, but your 1 back rogue can fire 2 arrows at the time? Oh my.

[Poomermon]

Hey I don't think your 4 ranged characters idea is completely stupid. It might even work but I think your approach is a bit skewed. First you have to realize that investing in offence is way better than investing in defence in this game. If you are standing there trading blows with your enemy you are doing it wrong. The system is meant to be abused by tactical movement meaning you have to kite and dance around your enemies. If you do it correctly you will not take any damage at all. Sometimes you have to fight fairly but in those situation you are better of killing your opponent as fast as possible as defensive bonuses will not help you enough if the battle becomes prolonged. That means putting skill points to weapon skill. On my best run my party (sword fighter/unarmed fighter/missile weapons rogue/throwing weapons rogue) had all their weapons skills maxed in the end and they were total monsters.

So I think your problem is your obsession with defensive bonuses but in this game they do not matter nearly as much as good offence.

[oodyboo]

Interesting idea. Shows off the versatility of the engine.

The fortitude of this party could be very useful, and the all ranged team means you can throw everything but the kitchen sink at the enemy before they even get near you. I think this is what you mean regarding the comparison to two missiles with one click. While 50 missile skill lets your rogue shoot two missiles at once, having all four characters throw missiles is essentially the same as having two of these double-shooting rogues in the back and two melee when you are at range.

Maybe it wouldn't be as much damage as 4 rogues with missile skills, but I'll bet the general survivability of this 4 tank party would be very impressive compared to those "glass cannons."

This party is likely excellent for fighter's challenge.

Oh and Empyrean, YOU are clearly the stupid one (and closed-minded) for not only starting off your argument ad hominem, but repeating it again at the end. His party may not suit your play style, but that does not mean he is stupid.

[stepsongrapes]

Oh and Empyrean, YOU are clearly the stupid one (and closed-minded) for not only starting off your argument ad hominem, but repeating it again at the end. His party may not suit your play style, but that does not mean he is stupid.

His party is designed for an inconsistent and and ultimately inefficient playstyle. He's going all ranged, but he's decked out as if he will go toe-to-toe with mobs. Even parties with melee tanks up front aren't intended to slug it out. Basically, he has a whole team of jack-of-all trades and masters of none. He's also going about it in a very inefficient way, favoring protection for defense rather than pure HP (from VIT) and evasion.

As you recognized, this 4 party ranged design will essentially have the ranged damage output of two dedicated backrow ranged characters. So, what's the benefit? At range, they're no better than a 2-melee, 2-ranged party. Up close, they're less effective than the 2/2. Moreover, each unit of "ammo" is doing less damage because it is allocated to four mediocre characters rather than going to pumped-up dedicated units. Basically, each arrow/rock is not being used to maximum potential. So, at best, he does the same DPS at range as a 2/2, but he's eating effectively twice the ammo to do it.

Essentially, it's a schizophrenic party design without a single effective use case.

LoG is a relatively easy game for an experienced player. I have no doubt that the game can be completed with this party just as it can with four mages, etc. Where OP goes wrong is that he proposes this as the ultimate team from a min-maxing perspective. It isn't.

[RedOwl]

I'm glad that my apparent mental problems become the main discussion point.

However, I already address the point of "wasting" ammo. I'm not wasting ammo, my per ammo start game damage is pretty much the same as your lvl 50 archer damage.

"Favoring protection for defense rather than pure HP (from VIT) and evasion." is a joke of an argument. Look at the armor skill line again. And you'll see that you gain huge health, +5 evasion and double shield evasion bonus. And my "not so pure HP from VIT" is second max attr on my chars. Hell, my vitality is beyond all your rogues without even armor skills, its practically more than any vitality any other race class can have. How is that not maxed? Just because you think that there is only one rogue evasion tank?

Trying to negate my tank ability is pointless. I have way better tank than ANY useful build. And again, magic attack negate evasion, hit everyone. His from behind and from the back will hit you back row maxed in weapon. Any rogue you have maxed in weapon will not have your evasion tank or any tank for that matter since you can't use armor efficiently.

Trying to say that my DPS is less than pure damage build is also not true. If you have pure dps build you CAN"T stand in front of an enemy. If you can't stand face to face you have to run circles you CAN"T run fast enough from enemy to use your weapon at max rate of fire. You just can't before they will hit you. Anytime you go behind a corner or you do 2x2 dance monster will be no at the line of fire and you dps is wasted.