D&D 4th Ed Good or Bad?

[Kthanid]

4th edition was clearly designed to appeal to a wider audience (namely the crowd of people who have been born and raised playing games like WoW). While I don't wholeheartedly agree with the direction, I think it was a good move on their part. The friends I grew up playing 2e with have started a 4e campaign that we play as often as we can (we shoot for once a month, but as all things go now that we're older and have responsibilities, that doesn't always happen). Here are my takes on some high level aspects of 4e (both good and bad):

* The change to allow all classes to have "powers" is mostly a good thing. You can think of those powers however you want, but as someone who grew up playing a lot of fighters in 2e I can say that it's somewhat refreshing to have other things to do than a basic attack over and over again ad nauseum while the high level mage does all the real work (and has all the fun).

* On the other side of the powers debate, I feel that Clerics especially (and to some degree wizards) have lost some of what makes them feel magical. Since everyone is doing impressive things all the time, nothing feels particularly mystifying or unique about the arcane classes.

* The initial offering of races, classes, and everything that goes with them is a little too lightweight in that most classes have obviously optimal selections in terms of powers and would, over time, result in many of the "same" characters being created for these classes. This appears to me to have been done somewhat intentionally to put value on needing new books and expansions for new powers and new classes. It's not a problem in the first few playthroughs because these characters and powers are new, but I could see that becoming somewhat stale after a few campaigns.

* The gameplay has been redesigned to make strategic combat the focus of the entire game. In many large ways roleplaying has been given a back seat (I know this is still largely in the power of the DM, but I've found that 90% of our game time seems to be devoted to just hammering out combat rounds with 4e). This is good or bad depending on whether or not you enjoy the combat. Personally, part of me misses the days when everything about the combat took place in our minds, now a board, minis, and tiles are basically a requirement (we use a whiteboard that has been scored out into a grid with a combination of minis and custom monster tiles I created).

* Whether you like or dislike the rules, I think they did an excellent job with the books this time around. I felt that they were well organized, really easy to read, and the DM's manual in particular seems much better geared to teach new DM's how to be a good DM as opposed to just providing a book full of tables and rules.

[silverhand]

Personally I found 4th Edition to be a flaming pile of crud...so I am happy I only bought 1 book, and gladly shelled out for the 3.5 Edition PHB - currently playing a campaign of that with my group and having a good time.

In the past we've also played Castles & Crusades (Troll Lord Games) which was quite fun as well.

I've got my DM contemplating a Shadowrun campaign now, and I am actually eyeballying this over on Kickstarter as well (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/705 ... and-update).

[t0tem]

Lots of stuff

I agree 100%.

Also Shadowrun ROCKS!

[Darklord]

Also Shadowrun ROCKS!

Yes yes it does!

I also loved Shadowrun's ancestor, Earthdawn. (and have both played and DM'd it several times over the years)

Daniel.

[Dlanor]

I can't stand 4th edition, because it changed the game into an MMORPG.

I miss THAC0...

[Blade Runner]

Lots of stuff

I agree 100%.

Also Shadowrun ROCKS!

For all the Shadowrun fans, check out the latest SR project by Jordan Weisman who recently got the licensed back from Microsoft:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/161 ... un-returns

[Darklord]

For all the Shadowrun fans, check out the latest SR project by Jordan Weisman who recently got the licensed back from Microsoft:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/161 ... un-returns

Heh I check it out constantly!

For me, it's the most exciting Kickstarter project there is!

We have a thread for further discussion of it here,

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=292

Daniel.

[Kthanid]

I can't stand 4th edition, because it changed the game into an MMORPG.

Like most things in life, 4th edition is whatever you want to make of it. I've heard this complaint from a lot of people and while I don't disagree that the rules have been designed to more appropriately appeal to the demographic that would prefer the game to be more like the MMORPG's they are familiar with,I strongly disagree that this is somehow inherently a requirement of the game.

4e has every bit as much potential to be as true of a tabletop RPG as any previous edition or any other similar RPG game. If your 4e games are being run like an MMO _and_ this is something contrary to what the majority of your players are interested in, then your issue is with your DM, not with 4e itself. How a campaign is run and how much latitude is allowed for your players to immerse themselves in the role playing experience is purely a product of the quality and experience of your DM.

Furthermore, any aspect of 4e (or any other game) that doesn't mesh with your groups desired goals or enjoyment can easily be remedied with the application of house rules (this was as true in 2e as it is 4e).

I miss THAC0...

I won't lie, I have a soft spot for THAC0 myself.

[Kostas]

I'll just say I hate 4th ed and all my friends hate it too (ages 30-35).
It's just so alien, it's a completely different game to the one we know and love.
1-2-3-3.5 ed are pretty similar, 3.5 being the most streamlined and so I rate it the highest (I used to play AD&D too)
I don't really like splatbooks though. Not the imba spells or classes, or the 1001 combat maneuvers.
Fighters aren't just 2 normal attacks. There's all sorts of things you can do. From grapling to disarming to tripping to 1001 maneuvers ;p
And they can taunt the real way, with RP, not just using a lame skill. That's why the game has a living DM.
I love me some 3.5 with sugar on top.

4th ed might be a good game on its own, but it's not deserving of the name D&D imo.
You didn't see such an outcry when 3ed came out did you? So obviously there's something wrong with 4th ed, stop denying it.

[t0tem]

Yup, it's a completely different game, sad that they would rip out some 40 years of tradition like that. But the kids probably like it. Let's face it, we're dinosaurs.