How can you even compare this to Dark souls (not mentioning its predecessor which was pretty much flooded with exploits)? In Dark souls you had to carefully study patterns and strike at the right moment. But in LoG all you need to do is to lure any enemy into 2x2 area and then exploit the hell out of it. It's boring, it's chore and there is definitely not a single grain of tactics in it. This wasn't really possible in DM either.
I like the LoG combat system and how agile it is but this is a clear flaw that needs to be removed. The AI also very often seems to be "confused" in the 2x2 area. Just watch how long it takes for some mobs to even decide which direction to go.
I understand later on mobs get so powerful you can't tank them (finished the game on hard) but there is a clear difference between skillfully dodging them and stabbing them to cheap death in 2x2 which pretty much renders the player invincible.
The point is if the most used tactics in the game is chore and simply not fun then something is wrong.
2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
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Jack Dandy
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:22 pm
- Location: Haifa, Israel
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Harsh but true words, Megami.
I believe the combat in the game can really be improved somehow.
I believe the combat in the game can really be improved somehow.
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King Semos
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:05 pm
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
I think a lot of the tactics come into how you build your characters, more so than how you use them. In normal mode I can pretty much face tank anything because I build my characters well. I equip them properly, and use spells like fire shield when I should. Typically, Ogres, Wardens and Goromorgs are the toughest monsters to fight. If you use potions, magic wards, and good old frost bombs, you really have no reason to go and kite one of them in a 2x2 square at all. Earlier on things like Uggardians and Cave Crabs can be tough, but the same game intentional tactics apply. The only thing I really kite are the nasty Herders, for good reason.
If you're going and dancing around 2x2 squares just so you don't have to use any potions, frost bombs, or warding magics ever. What are you saving them for?
*edit.
Just to be clear, I wasn't implying that one builds their characters poorly. I was just implying that dancing around mobs is sometimes, or almost always superfluous.
If you're going and dancing around 2x2 squares just so you don't have to use any potions, frost bombs, or warding magics ever. What are you saving them for?
*edit.
Just to be clear, I wasn't implying that one builds their characters poorly. I was just implying that dancing around mobs is sometimes, or almost always superfluous.
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
It would take just longer to dance 2x2.\/4n!ll4 ][c3 wrote: and if you think it is so much more important that how you choose to spend your spec points, go through the game without spending a single one and see how much of a difference it makes. you know, not gaining a single point of evade, no health, no strength or dex, or armor proficiency, weapon proficiency, any of that. see how difficult it is even to kill the spiders. doing 4 damage per attack every 4 seconds.
But outcome would be same, since you are not getting hit but enemy is being hit.
I was hit maybe 1 time from dozens crabs killed combined. You just need adjust to their movements and can dance 2x2.Kostas wrote: I'm new so I don't know about later levels, thanks.
BUT do they strafe and attack you almost immediately or can you still escape and avoid damage?
Just adding % of any monster quick-retaliation attacks would already make defensive skills at least somewhat useful compared to 2x2 "skillz".Saice wrote:You would need to overhaul the whole system making it so mobility did not mater and skills, stats, and gear did. But Then your combats would be Step up to monster stand there and click your attacks until you win or lose.
Maybe after each time monster does damage, it auto-retaliates with weak (so casuals dont complain) attack? Or have chance of it.
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King Semos
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:05 pm
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
I think the moral here is,
You can 2x2 dance if you really want to, but if its making you bored, there is no reason to continue doing it. Playing the game properly is in fact a viable style. Most single player games have some form of AI abuse, that's just the way it is with us clever humans.
You can 2x2 dance if you really want to, but if its making you bored, there is no reason to continue doing it. Playing the game properly is in fact a viable style. Most single player games have some form of AI abuse, that's just the way it is with us clever humans.
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\/4n!ll4 ][c3
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:39 am
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
the games are very similar. dark souls is so easy its not even funny. the only reason it is perceived as hard is because, like this game, people do not know how to adapt to the structure of the game because they are so used to having super characters. as a matter of fact, i would go so far as to say that dark souls is even easier than this game because if you have the right bow you can kill many of the enemies, and some bosses, without ever even triggering them to counter attack you.
the gaping dragon boss fight was a matter of kiting him around a battlefield, effectively 2x2 strafing him.
the taurus demon was a matter of kiting him to one side of the bridge so that after he went into his attack animation you had enough time to run behind him and back up the ladder so you could plunge attack him. very comparable to 2x2 strafing.
smough and orstein was a matter of running around the map out of way of their attacks so that you could attack them, again 2x2 strafing.
moonlight butterfly was a matter of dodging her projectiles and taking a few pot shots to cause her to land so you could do massive damage. 2x2
sif you had to strafe him when he went into his attack animation.
capra demon: block, strafe to the side, stab with spear.
bell gargoyles, wait for them to attack, strafe to the side, stab.
every boss fight in the game came down to strafing their attack and stabbing from the side. except the four kings, which was just go 2 handed with your spear and kill them as fast as possible, using an estus flask as needed, which is pretty much the fighters challenge.
even the normal enemies in the game that werent comparable in difficulty to snails, you had to (if you couldnt just destroy them with a bow) strafe around them to avoid getting hit and attack them once they had gone into their attack animation.
the ONLY enemies where neither of these were viable tactics were the optional enemies, the bridge dragon and the 2 hydras. oh, and the bed of chaos, which basically consistent of running to either side of him to destroy his roots, and then beneath him to destroy his heart.
so yes, the combat tactics in dark souls and this game are one in the same, just on different levels of involvement due to the scope of the respective games.
the gaping dragon boss fight was a matter of kiting him around a battlefield, effectively 2x2 strafing him.
the taurus demon was a matter of kiting him to one side of the bridge so that after he went into his attack animation you had enough time to run behind him and back up the ladder so you could plunge attack him. very comparable to 2x2 strafing.
smough and orstein was a matter of running around the map out of way of their attacks so that you could attack them, again 2x2 strafing.
moonlight butterfly was a matter of dodging her projectiles and taking a few pot shots to cause her to land so you could do massive damage. 2x2
sif you had to strafe him when he went into his attack animation.
capra demon: block, strafe to the side, stab with spear.
bell gargoyles, wait for them to attack, strafe to the side, stab.
every boss fight in the game came down to strafing their attack and stabbing from the side. except the four kings, which was just go 2 handed with your spear and kill them as fast as possible, using an estus flask as needed, which is pretty much the fighters challenge.
even the normal enemies in the game that werent comparable in difficulty to snails, you had to (if you couldnt just destroy them with a bow) strafe around them to avoid getting hit and attack them once they had gone into their attack animation.
the ONLY enemies where neither of these were viable tactics were the optional enemies, the bridge dragon and the 2 hydras. oh, and the bed of chaos, which basically consistent of running to either side of him to destroy his roots, and then beneath him to destroy his heart.
so yes, the combat tactics in dark souls and this game are one in the same, just on different levels of involvement due to the scope of the respective games.
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Have the devs commented on this subject yet?
To be honest the 2x2 dance seems to be a borderline exploit and since ive started abusing this tactic combat is pretty easy.
Someone even made a most here the other day where they beat the game on hard mode only using 1 character. Surely not intended.
To be honest the 2x2 dance seems to be a borderline exploit and since ive started abusing this tactic combat is pretty easy.
Someone even made a most here the other day where they beat the game on hard mode only using 1 character. Surely not intended.
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
\/4n!ll4 ][c3: I got destroyed in Dark Souls and took me some very long time to figure things out (and I am Demon's souls veteran, melee only, no boss exploits). Took me like 20 attempts to defeat belltower gargoryles. Maybe you are just that good or you grind a lot.
On the other hand in LoG I figured out the 2x2 cheese the very first moment I had a chance to do so. I went for hard+oldschool and saving only at crystals but the 2x2 cheese still made it so incredibly easy I started to be annoyed by the combat system later on (initially I really loved it until I discovered 2x2). Sure I can put on some moral restraints but this is hardly acceptable at all.
We have been given an amazing game so why not to try to make it as perfect as possible? I don't know the attitude of devs on this issue but I am positive they know about this since it is pretty hard to miss.
On the other hand in LoG I figured out the 2x2 cheese the very first moment I had a chance to do so. I went for hard+oldschool and saving only at crystals but the 2x2 cheese still made it so incredibly easy I started to be annoyed by the combat system later on (initially I really loved it until I discovered 2x2). Sure I can put on some moral restraints but this is hardly acceptable at all.
We have been given an amazing game so why not to try to make it as perfect as possible? I don't know the attitude of devs on this issue but I am positive they know about this since it is pretty hard to miss.
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
In every game I've ever played that involves movement and combat, dodging enemy attacks has always been a winning strategy. The strafe dodging in this game is really no different than kiting in MMOs, or dodging rockets in quake.
If you dodge all the rockets and keep shooting a pistol at the enemy , you're going to win every time!
If you keep kiting a monster in most MMO's, so long as your damage outpaces the regeneration, you will eventually win every time.
Every game that allows a player to manually dodge attacks suffers from this issue, once you master dodging it's very hard/impossible to kill you.
If a game has a manual dodge mechanism, then some players will inevitably master it and be "unkillable" short of mistakes. If a game does not have manual dodging, then combat becomes stationary click click click and random dice based on your character build strategies alone.
The best way to address this is through improving the game content, e.g. monster abilities/characteristics like lmaoboat's suggestions in the Tactical combat thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1909), monster placement and AI, as well balancing class abilities/skills, etc...
Removing manual dodge (making it ineffective is functionally equivalent) will just make character trees all important and then these forums would be even more full of complaints about skill X being better than skill Y or class X better than class Y or having to pick skills in certain orders or you'll have 5 less HP at the end of the game. I suspect there would be far fewer posts about people enjoying the game.
It takes an awful lot of time and review to balance a variety of skills/classes etc. Just look at games like WoW that have huge dev teams and are constantly tweaking balance even after 7 or 10 years or however long people have been paying for that mess. (And they charge you every month more than this entire game!)
If you find 2x2 strafing is boring, you can minimize your use of it. Try figure 8's, or random patterns, or try building a party that can stand toe-to-toe with monsters. To be honest I didn't use 2x2 strafing until the blue-ish colored creatures on level 9 that destroy my athletic/armor focused fighter. And I'll agree strafing is easy once you have the timing down, but it would be a lot worse without it. And primarily it's too easy because all the non-spell attacks are simple instant clicks so only mages take any player focus with the potential of interrupting the player's strafing rhythm. Strafing gets much tougher when you have something else to focus on, and that's why I would personally try to make the attack system more engaging.
If you dodge all the rockets and keep shooting a pistol at the enemy , you're going to win every time!
If you keep kiting a monster in most MMO's, so long as your damage outpaces the regeneration, you will eventually win every time.
Every game that allows a player to manually dodge attacks suffers from this issue, once you master dodging it's very hard/impossible to kill you.
If a game has a manual dodge mechanism, then some players will inevitably master it and be "unkillable" short of mistakes. If a game does not have manual dodging, then combat becomes stationary click click click and random dice based on your character build strategies alone.
The best way to address this is through improving the game content, e.g. monster abilities/characteristics like lmaoboat's suggestions in the Tactical combat thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1909), monster placement and AI, as well balancing class abilities/skills, etc...
Removing manual dodge (making it ineffective is functionally equivalent) will just make character trees all important and then these forums would be even more full of complaints about skill X being better than skill Y or class X better than class Y or having to pick skills in certain orders or you'll have 5 less HP at the end of the game. I suspect there would be far fewer posts about people enjoying the game.
It takes an awful lot of time and review to balance a variety of skills/classes etc. Just look at games like WoW that have huge dev teams and are constantly tweaking balance even after 7 or 10 years or however long people have been paying for that mess. (And they charge you every month more than this entire game!)
If you find 2x2 strafing is boring, you can minimize your use of it. Try figure 8's, or random patterns, or try building a party that can stand toe-to-toe with monsters. To be honest I didn't use 2x2 strafing until the blue-ish colored creatures on level 9 that destroy my athletic/armor focused fighter. And I'll agree strafing is easy once you have the timing down, but it would be a lot worse without it. And primarily it's too easy because all the non-spell attacks are simple instant clicks so only mages take any player focus with the potential of interrupting the player's strafing rhythm. Strafing gets much tougher when you have something else to focus on, and that's why I would personally try to make the attack system more engaging.
Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]
Strafe dodging is part of the game, but I agree there could be some additional monster behaviour to make it less than 100% effective. I like some of the suggestions, like the tentacle grab that prevents movement, more special attacks that can hit other directions than forwards, and things like that. They could be tied to difficulty levels, increased difficulty gives more abilities to enemies. Never liked simple +hp +damage buffs, improved AI and more abilities is much better.