Why Not Bring a Mage?

[Darklord]

it would be nice to say they're worth a slot on the team, but frankly, you could finish the game with a single character, so what sense does that argument make??

I think like you've pointed out, no one is "needed" some people may find them fun though, I know I did.

Daniel.

[Chiller]

If you're playing the game for the first (and possibly second) time, it doesn't really matter.

After that, you start noticing that skills aren't well balanced, evasion trumps protection, mages are weak etc.

People saying that mages are 'useless', in the sense that you can take another class over them (some sort of ranged rogue, presumably) and do much better, are correct in the absolute sense, but that shouldn't stop you from playing with mages while you are still having fun.

[DragonDai]

So my first game was in normal. I had a mage and a melee rogue in the back row (stabbing with daggers thanks to assassination).

The rogue did awesome damage, especially when I could get behind the target. about 90ish on a crit, 40ish not on a crit, and he critted more than he didn't. If I couldn't get behind the guy and I didn't crit, his damage was pathetic (20ish) but that was rare. And he attacked very often.

The mage, on the other hand, was a mixture of earth, fire, ice, and spellcraft. At the begining I really had no idea what I was doing with him...I didn't understand the value of specializing. So he was a little gimped to begin with. However, once I got the shaman's staff, his (un-empowered) poisen bolts were hitting for the mid 70s, and once I got the orb his (empowered) firebolts were generally hitting for 200 damage or more a pop. Sure, occasionally the damage was a bit lower. And they were useless against the fire guys. But because I got to the +25% cast speed in spellcraft, he was pumping out fireballs faster than my minataur could swing his mace! Now sure, there were occasions we had to stop due to him being out of mana. And sometimes he would grab a stack of throwing whatevers to toss if there was a super extended battle. But 85% of the time he was casting spells every single opportunity, with very very little downtime (I didn't end up seeing all the dream sequences, apparently). I did almost run out of things to make energy potions, but I did not. So combine the fact that he really didn't slow the party down with the fact he hit like a truck with the fact that he hit all mobs in multi-mob formations and yeah, mage was MVP of that run, easy.

[Sabatasso]

No class is essential to make it through this dungeon. And Mages are powerful, no doubt. But in the end it's a question about effectiveness as well.

I always invest about the same amount of points in Spellcraft and a single magic line. I prefer Ice or Air, but any will most likely do. By the time you near the end you will most likely have around 30 in each.

Mage PRO's;
- They do huge burst damage
- Light Source without occupying a hand slot
- They're fun if you bother with the extra mouse clicks (spells)

Mage CON's;
- They use extreme amounts of energy and needs to rest often
- Their spells often damages more than one creature, and often kills creatures that other group members don't get a chance to hit (less xp for the group)
- The most useful protection spell is in the Earth line, which can potentially harm XP income for the group (poison cloud)
- They have the least HP's and virtually no armor, and arguably the least interesting equipment in the game

In the end, and extra rogue probably be easier (less clicking and hazzle) and at least as effective in terms of damage.

[NakedGranny]

No class is essential to make it through this dungeon. And Mages are powerful, no doubt. But in the end it's a question about effectiveness as well.

I always invest about the same amount of points in Spellcraft and a single magic line. I prefer Ice or Air, but any will most likely do. By the time you near the end you will most likely have around 30 in each.

Mage PRO's;
- They do huge burst damage
- Light Source without occupying a hand slot
- They're fun if you bother with the extra mouse clicks (spells)

Mage CON's;
- They use extreme amounts of energy and needs to rest often
- Their spells often damages more than one creature, and often kills creatures that other group members don't get a chance to hit (less xp for the group)
- The most useful protection spell is in the Earth line, which can potentially harm XP income for the group (poison cloud)
- They have the least HP's and virtually no armor, and arguably the least interesting equipment in the game

In the end, and extra rogue probably be easier (less clicking and hazzle) and at least as effective in terms of damage.

not sure why there have been reports of Poison Cloud stealing XP because i still see +XP notifications when a monster dies due to it... is that because the other party members hit the creature while it was in the cloud and the Mage didn't actually end up getting any of it? will need to test it more, but personally, i'm way too frustrated with the class to ever bother with it again in its current state.

SpoilerShow

you don't actually need the Light spell, the Orb of Radiance acts as a permanent Light spell while equipped. they do have really crappy gear available, though. especially since the Shaman's Staff and Zhandul's orb buff the two least-desirable spell types, and especially since there is definitely not enough Mage gear in the game to outfit more than one of them at a time.

the devs seem to have done a few quick runs with the default group and completely ignored development on any other skills.

[Eobersig]

I think one could have made the same thread asking "Why not to bring a warrior".

The beauty of Grimrock is that many party combinations can work well. It depends on whether the player is content with "working well" or whether he/she wants the "most effective" thing.

I started a 4-man rogue party for version 1.1.4, only on normal difficulty, I'm twitch-challenged.

[Raddra]

useless? Maybe if you have butterfingers.

My Insectoid Ice/Fire mage rocks the house, sometimes I have to tell myself to stop and let the rest of the party have a turn outfide of jumping on frozen enemies.

[Stalkingwolf]

beat the game with 2 mages on hardmode oldschool 1379 spells cast.
16 Fire/ 24 Ice/ 22 Spellcraft
and 27 Air / 13 Earth / 20 Spellcraft

and yes earth is not very good. Fireball is to expensive, but ice and lightning bold are very powerfull.

[Tenzek]

I went with a human mage and gave him the "tough" trait so that he was a bit more survivable. I didn't really have any trouble with him dying except...

SpoilerShow

In The Fighter's Challenge, where you're quickly surrounded by a room full of monsters, both of my back row guys went down quick.

I got a rhythm down for entering the spell in between the melee attacks of the rest of my party. I had an unarmed/evade rogue, a dagger/assassin rogue, and a sword/prot fighter with an item to make his attacks refresh faster. Maybe Ice spells are easier to enter than fire or air, but I did not feel like I was slowed down in combat for doing it. I was only able to cast once per two combat rounds, though the freeze lasted longer than that anyway.

By the end I was casting as much as I wanted and not worried about spell points running out. I had something like 8-9 casts of ice bolt on a full bar, plus I would regen enough for another one every 15 seconds or so. I never even mixed an energy potion.

fire may be ok to, but Ugguards resist it, and they are the best mobs to grind and you haver to fight them often.

True, but with the fire line you can make your party resist it and make those guys mostly harmless, too.

[Rob]

So in essence: Nerf rogues?