Any chance of a mini-map?

[seebs]

Well, I know I get a little dismissive towards suggestions to add new, 'modern' gameplay features to this old-school game.

New, 'modern' gameplay features like those of Chaos Strikes Back?

That's what really gets me. I mean, nevermind that in general, "modern" features are not necessarily a bad thing; part of why old-school games are so rare now is because many of the limitations they had due to limited CPU or memory or whatever were actually not fun. But this particular one? It's a standard feature of two of the games this game is clearly an homage to.

That said... The ideal vision, I think, is not to recreate every choice that was made in 1988 whether it made sense or not, but rather, to try to find the spirit of the game, but feel free to improve. Multiple save slots, as opposed to a single save floppy, are also a "modern" feature. So's the entire game loading so quickly. So are things like counting "secrets" and keeping track of which ones you've done, and modding tools, and a developer console using a high-level scripting language...

Modern is not a bad thing. The thing that made DM great was not that it was limited by the technology of the 1980s. Grimrock will still have that essential philosophy even if they add a minimap. (And ideally, one which is carried by a character and only works when you've activiated it with a spell.)

[quester99]

Well, I know I get a little dismissive towards suggestions to add new, 'modern' gameplay features to this old-school game.

New, 'modern' gameplay features like those of Chaos Strikes Back?

That's what really gets me. I mean, nevermind that in general, "modern" features are not necessarily a bad thing; part of why old-school games are so rare now is because many of the limitations they had due to limited CPU or memory or whatever were actually not fun. But this particular one? It's a standard feature of two of the games this game is clearly an homage to.

That said... The ideal vision, I think, is not to recreate every choice that was made in 1988 whether it made sense or not, but rather, to try to find the spirit of the game, but feel free to improve. Multiple save slots, as opposed to a single save floppy, are also a "modern" feature. So's the entire game loading so quickly. So are things like counting "secrets" and keeping track of which ones you've done, and modding tools, and a developer console using a high-level scripting language...

Modern is not a bad thing. The thing that made DM great was not that it was limited by the technology of the 1980s. Grimrock will still have that essential philosophy even if they add a minimap. (And ideally, one which is carried by a character and only works when you've activiated it with a spell.)

Sure, newer features are not a bad thing. Save slots, secrets, modding, etc are good technical improvements. Things that add flavor (secrets) and make getting to the content better (save slots, loading) are great. Things that add accessibility to more gamers are great (adding the on-screen movement arrows, toggles for the head-bobbing to prevent headaches).

Pasting a mini-map on the screen? Some people would think this affects core game-play outside of the 'spirit' of the game. Not every convenience or gui advance has to be added. Sure the programmers can add whatever they want, the possibilities are endless. That they chose not to include a mini-map in their vision I think was a conscious choice of theirs.

Like I said, if it was an option that could be switched on or off then how could it hurt? Some people like to go outdoor camping with a generator to run a tv set and some people like to camp with just a tent and a flashlight hahaha. Not a great analogy I know, but just to say for me I cringe a bit to think of a mini-map overlay on the screen in this game. Then again it is hard to imagine going back to camping without something like gps. All this is just my opinion, you have yours and I can respect it. You make some good points. Peace.

[impish1234]

i'm an older player (42) i played nearly all dungeon crawler - and yesterday i finished this game with more then 3 times to take a look in the hint section here.

But i like this minimap idea and im sure i will not use it more then 5% - but sometimes as a feature it would be great.
Before i started LOG, was it clear for me to play it old school mode - but old school isnt old school anymore.
Specially since Internet rocks around our home, so i canceled the old school idea for myself and play it with the map - and also enjoyed the game.
DM century is over when you stuck at a point and you must wait one month for maybe a wlkthrough from another player was printed in a magazin, and one month longer
to reading in the same magazin's follow up number - sorry but it was not this tourch that opens the secret chamber it was the coin you got 3 levels below

BTW with LoG we got a big chance to bring back one of the best game types over more then 25 years software history - and AH did it well nearly perfect.

Why the should add a minimap function
=================================
- you can use it or not
- im sure its not a big milestone for the designers to add it in the game.
- it opens the game to more player (specially younger generation)

markus

[Scase]

Well, I know I get a little dismissive towards suggestions to add new, 'modern' gameplay features to this old-school game.

New, 'modern' gameplay features like those of Chaos Strikes Back?

That's what really gets me. I mean, nevermind that in general, "modern" features are not necessarily a bad thing; part of why old-school games are so rare now is because many of the limitations they had due to limited CPU or memory or whatever were actually not fun. But this particular one? It's a standard feature of two of the games this game is clearly an homage to.

That said... The ideal vision, I think, is not to recreate every choice that was made in 1988 whether it made sense or not, but rather, to try to find the spirit of the game, but feel free to improve. Multiple save slots, as opposed to a single save floppy, are also a "modern" feature. So's the entire game loading so quickly. So are things like counting "secrets" and keeping track of which ones you've done, and modding tools, and a developer console using a high-level scripting language...

Modern is not a bad thing. The thing that made DM great was not that it was limited by the technology of the 1980s. Grimrock will still have that essential philosophy even if they add a minimap. (And ideally, one which is carried by a character and only works when you've activiated it with a spell.)

Sure, newer features are not a bad thing. Save slots, secrets, modding, etc are good technical improvements. Things that add flavor (secrets) and make getting to the content better (save slots, loading) are great. Things that add accessibility to more gamers are great (adding the on-screen movement arrows, toggles for the head-bobbing to prevent headaches).

Pasting a mini-map on the screen? Some people would think this affects core game-play outside of the 'spirit' of the game. Not every convenience or gui advance has to be added. Sure the programmers can add whatever they want, the possibilities are endless. That they chose not to include a mini-map in their vision I think was a conscious choice of theirs.

Like I said, if it was an option that could be switched on or off then how could it hurt? Some people like to go outdoor camping with a generator to run a tv set and some people like to camp with just a tent and a flashlight hahaha. Not a great analogy I know, but just to say for me I cringe a bit to think of a mini-map overlay on the screen in this game. Then again it is hard to imagine going back to camping without something like gps. All this is just my opinion, you have yours and I can respect it. You make some good points. Peace.

As was stated earlier, the fact that a minimap is present in games from DECADES ago, those of which this game is based upon/paying homage to shouldn't create as much rage and vitriol that it has from supposed "old schoolers".

[King Semos]

Yeah I don't quite get the hostility round these parts sometimes.

Yeah..... It's a bit surprising how rude people can be, I can't imagine they talk like this in person.


Anyway, I understand where people are coming from when they shy away from certain features. What does make this game stand out from all the others I have played in recent years, is the sense of nostalgia, in a good way. It makes me feel like a kid playing video games again, and I didn't even play any Dungeon Master games. The limitations of this game are what gives it this feel. I remember playing games like Thief the Dark project, there was no mini-map. The map itself was very vague and looked like it was drawn with a Quill. It was a lot harder to navigate but it made the game extremely immersive. I found a lot of games recently, namely WoW really just kept adding "convenience" updates. I felt like I was being tricked into being satisfied with the updates but it never added fun, it only added convenience. The game was a grind aka chore, and this chore was getting annoying so they made it an easier chore time and time again. The only reason to play was that it was goal orientated, the goal being the satisfaction of a "strong" or well geared character, and they kept moving that goal like a carrot on a stick. See, I feel upset now. This is why we get mad!


Anyway, here I just made this in 2 seconds. Poof.

SpoilerShow

Point being, I don't care for convenience updates. You gotta draw the line somewhere and I personally think the line is now. Just give me more content, and more things based on fun and diversity. New portraits, new races, new classes, and new dungeons.




Aha, found one. Thief the Dark Project, typical map of a level.
Would you like a mini-map to go with that? No thx, just a compass.

[Lmaoboat]

I'm not one those old-guard types, and even I think a mini-map would just feel wrong. Though I would settle for being able to walk while the map is up.

[seebs]

I liked the maps in CSB and DM2. They made possible puzzles which would really not have been possible to include reasonably without them.

[skurg]

A minim map is a great idea, but most of the people here don't understand this, they prefer to draw a map with a pencil, lol.

This is very annoying to hit tab every second to check where I am.

[Luuthian]

Thank you to everyone trying to keep people calmed the heck down . It was a simple suggestion. I understand there will always be an attachment to "things as they were", and that's okay. There's no reason there cannot be a balance struck, however.

Grimrock already has a "classic" mode that allows you create your own maps. There's no reason why the modern mode couldn't have an optional mini-map toggle. And you can say what you will, but I find a mini-map to be a massive convenience. It does absolutely no harm to the game's challenge and it maintains fluid, rhythmical gameplay without pause. There's a reason why MANY modern games include mini-maps in their displays. But what I find confusing is why so many are pointing to WoW singularly? Not only did several older dungeon crawlers have a mini-map, but almost every game in the market today uses one. Off the top of my head:

Etrian Odyssey, Grand Theft Auto, Metroid, Age of Empires, Runescape, WoW, Castlevania, later Might and Magic's, Mage Tower, Diablo 2, Jak and Daxter, etc.

Seebs said it best, I think, in that older games were designed as they were because of the times. Memory limitations limited the amount of things you could do with your game. But because so many people had to overcome the limitations of early videogames, I find a good deal of them mistake convenience for the removal of challenge. Knowing where I am in the dungeon without having to press Tab doesn't make the combat any easier to win and it doesn't make the puzzles any easier to solve.

People have said similar things about too many save points ruining the difficulty of older Japanese role playing games, but saving anytime you wish certainly doesn't make it any easier to play Grimrock, does it? It does, however, make it far faster and less time consuming to revisit the same challenge with a greater understanding of it.

Anyways, it was my 2 cents. I'm currently on level five of the dungeon and progressing steadily. Still enjoying the game.

[Luuthian]

I'm not one those old-guard types, and even I think a mini-map would just feel wrong. Though I would settle for being able to walk while the map is up.

That's why I just called out Diablo 2. Really that's the same idea, but it's a transparent overlay instead of an individual window. That would be just as acceptable.