"Backwards-compatible" Vitality

[ribaldron]

I have no idea how anybody can argue that this is actually a good mechanic.

I saw somebody (attempt) to use similar logic to describe the character a certain person would prefer.


Dexterity. Every two points of Dexterity gives you a chance to get some extra To Hit every level up.

Strength. Every two points of Strength gives you a chance to get some extra Attack every level up.

Vitality. Simply gives you HP.


Why would you invest in Vitality early on, when your character's attack will be gimped for an early increase in HP? Vit directly correlates to an HP increase, but if you take STR and DEX later in the game, you won't see a large benefit from it, since you need to have it before/as you level up.


Now back to how the mechanics actually work, why is one statistic being singled out and why is a "don't do these rolls randomly" button not a great idea?




Before you say anything no I don't save/reload and I probably won't, but I have always really hated the random, permanent, rolls that have been weeded out for years. They were alright in Wizardry which had grinding, but in a limited, almost puzzle game like LoG, it just doesn't work for me. Losing is only fun on Dwarf Fortress.


(my first attempt, one of my two identical fighters had TWICE the HP of the other. Go figure.)

[dbgager]

I have no idea how anybody can argue that this is actually a good mechanic.

I saw somebody (attempt) to use similar logic to describe the character a certain person would prefer.


Dexterity. Every two points of Dexterity gives you a chance to get some extra To Hit every level up.

Strength. Every two points of Strength gives you a chance to get some extra Attack every level up.

Vitality. Simply gives you HP.


Why would you invest in Vitality early on, when your character's attack will be gimped for an early increase in HP? Vit directly correlates to an HP increase, but if you take STR and DEX later in the game, you won't see a large benefit from it, since you need to have it before/as you level up.


Now back to how the mechanics actually work, why is one statistic being singled out and why is a "don't do these rolls randomly" button not a great idea?




Before you say anything no I don't save/reload and I probably won't, but I have always really hated the random, permanent, rolls that have been weeded out for years. They were alright in Wizardry which had grinding, but in a limited, almost puzzle game like LoG, it just doesn't work for me. Losing is only fun on Dwarf Fortress.


(my first attempt, one of my two identical fighters had TWICE the HP of the other. Go figure.)

Thats why the game is called Legend of Grimrock and not "Max my character". There is no perfect path..no right way. Its not a spread sheet. Its a game. if you want Attack go for it...If you want hit points go for them. Its your decision. Its called a choice.

I swear MMOs have ruined the current generation, and there sense of just having fun..If they do not know exactly how everything works, and the exact path to get the very best character possible. Then their not having any fun.

[seebs]

Thats why the game is called Legend of Grimrock and not "Max my character". There is no perfect path..no right way. Its not a spread sheet. Its a game. if you want Attack go for it...If you want hit points go for them. Its your decision. Its called a choice.

No, it's called random chance.

Here's the thing. Say you have two characters who are both level 20 or so (yeah, I know, more levelling up than this game has). And say they both have 20 dexterity and 20 vitality.

Isn't it gonna be a bit weird if one of them has twice the health of the other, because he started with high vitality and then built dexterity?

Making the order in which you acquire skills have that kind of permanent effect isn't really a great thing. It creates situations in which you are severely disadvantaged for not having known the mechanic in advance.

I swear MMOs have ruined the current generation, and there sense of just having fun..If they do not know exactly how everything works, and the exact path to get the very best character possible. Then their not having any fun.

I think it's mostly the hyperbole and bad spelling that have ruined things.

[dbgager]

Thats why the game is called Legend of Grimrock and not "Max my character". There is no perfect path..no right way. Its not a spread sheet. Its a game. if you want Attack go for it...If you want hit points go for them. Its your decision. Its called a choice.

No, it's called random chance.

Here's the thing. Say you have two characters who are both level 20 or so (yeah, I know, more levelling up than this game has). And say they both have 20 dexterity and 20 vitality.

Isn't it gonna be a bit weird if one of them has twice the health of the other, because he started with high vitality and then built dexterity?

Making the order in which you acquire skills have that kind of permanent effect isn't really a great thing. It creates situations in which you are severely disadvantaged for not having known the mechanic in advance.

I swear MMOs have ruined the current generation, and there sense of just having fun..If they do not know exactly how everything works, and the exact path to get the very best character possible. Then their not having any fun.

I think it's mostly the hyperbole and bad spelling that have ruined things.

And so...If you wnat to improve your chance to have higher HPs go for it.

Its a game......... ANd you truly do not understand the system if you think its going to make a difference of twice as much. A person who posted earlier said he concentrated on vitality with one of his fighters..and at the end of the game he had 15 more HPS than his other fighter. Those 10 or 15 HPs difference at the end of the game mean absolutely nothing.

[dbgager]

lol..Also ..Isn't that the way the body works..Would not a person who was healthy in the very early in their life, and stayed strong throughout it..be much stronger and healthier...and live longer than the person who just decided to get healthy at the very end of his life. Even though they got just as strong.

The system makes perfect sense. You get more health gains from being more healthy. Sorry if you don't like it. But that is how a human being works.

[seebs]

Maybe it's 10-15 sometimes, more than that others. Hmm. Well, come to think of it, that's easy to check.

Okay, quick check. Made a party with four fighters. Maxed out vitality in two, ignored it in two. The two with maxed out vitality ended up with 21 vitality (I put 4 points in maces and 5 in athletics), the other two ended up with 10. At level 14, the ones with high vitality had 174 and 175 max health, the ones with low vitality had 87 and 88. That's pretty much a factor of two there.

Tried again, only bothered to go to 19 vitality, got 183, 185, 92, 95.

So I'd say that's a pretty significant difference.

(And no, the comparison to how humans develop isn't relevant; we aren't coming into the dungeons as six-year-olds. Well, most of us aren't.)

[dbgager]

Maybe it's 10-15 sometimes, more than that others. Hmm. Well, come to think of it, that's easy to check.

Okay, quick check. Made a party with four fighters. Maxed out vitality in two, ignored it in two. The two with maxed out vitality ended up with 21 vitality (I put 4 points in maces and 5 in athletics), the other two ended up with 10. At level 14, the ones with high vitality had 174 and 175 max health, the ones with low vitality had 87 and 88. That's pretty much a factor of two there.

Tried again, only bothered to go to 19 vitality, got 183, 185, 92, 95.

So I'd say that's a pretty significant difference.

(And no, the comparison to how humans develop isn't relevant; we aren't coming into the dungeons as six-year-olds. Well, most of us aren't.)

What are these robots...lol..Its a game not a spreadsheet. Who cares..Not I. PLay it and enjoy it..or don't.

[dbgager]

Besides the fact . Your saying you started the game and just generated your characters..and then observed there HPS.lol..OF course if you give them twice as much vitality there going to have twice as many HPS..THats where HPs come from. What exactly does that prove. Where do you want HPs to come from.Try playing to the end of the game and raising the other 2 up to 20..You will see the difference is small.

[seebs]

(And no, the comparison to how humans develop isn't relevant; we aren't coming into the dungeons as six-year-olds. Well, most of us aren't.)

What are these robots...lol..Its a game not a spreadsheet. Who cares..Not I. PLay it and enjoy it..or don't.

Well, some of them are insectoids and minotaurs. Point is, nothing about development is relevant, because this isn't growth from infancy, it's a few days or weeks in the lives of adults. And yes, I see that you were in fact completely wrong about how much of a difference vitality makes, and that you graciously conceded the point.

I know this may seem strange, but I often enjoy things even when I think they are flawed. I believe this game would provide a more rewarding player experience if gains in vitality/willpower produced corresponding gains in health/energy regardless of when they happened, but you don't have to agree with that. I do, though, think you might want to at least check your facts before posting nonsense on the Internet. I know I always do.

[dbgager]

(And no, the comparison to how humans develop isn't relevant; we aren't coming into the dungeons as six-year-olds. Well, most of us aren't.)

What are these robots...lol..Its a game not a spreadsheet. Who cares..Not I. PLay it and enjoy it..or don't.

Well, some of them are insectoids and minotaurs. Point is, nothing about development is relevant, because this isn't growth from infancy, it's a few days or weeks in the lives of adults. And yes, I see that you were in fact completely wrong about how much of a difference vitality makes, and that you graciously conceded the point.

I know this may seem strange, but I often enjoy things even when I think they are flawed. I believe this game would provide a more rewarding player experience if gains in vitality/willpower produced corresponding gains in health/energy regardless of when they happened, but you don't have to agree with that. I do, though, think you might want to at least check your facts before posting nonsense on the Internet. I know I always do.

Conceded what..ANd check what facts. That something has to determice HPS...What do you propose to determine HPS..or why don't we just forget them all together..and give you guys super easy mode so that you don't have to worry about HPs ( every character gets exactly the same number of HPS every level ), and can just concentrate on attack skills. NO maybe we should get rid of those to just give you guys max attack skills then that way you don't have to worry about nothing.

We have now dumbed the game down to about 5 year old level. Lets also add an auto puzzle button , and where going to need an auto detect hidden areas button..

OH..nah...lets just put a giant jump to autodefeat the final boss and jump to the end of the game button.

If you want HPs go for HPs...geez. You cannot have everything. Its called a choice. Develop your character the way you want. There is no optimum character.