"Backwards-compatible" Vitality

[seebs]

While I certainly don't care if they offer a "max hp" checkbox in the option for those that want it, being annoying to people with OCD is hardly grounds for calling the design "faulty".

I don't think it's a matter of OCD. I do sort of feel that purely random things with such long-lasting effects undermine the idea of a game that is about strategic play.

[Halk]

If the developers were to implement this change then it would mean a fundamental change to the way they handle characters in the game.

At present it seems your hps, energy and statistics are held by the game as actual definite numbers. What the OP is asking for is for the game to store the hps, energy and statistics at level 1, and everything else to be a modifier on these.

So for example if you start off with 12 strength, as things stand just now, when you gain a +2 str perk your strength will change to 14. This isn't always the best way to handle it, as it causes problems if the perk tables were to be changed.

Perhaps a better way would be to store strength as 12, however when calculating what current strength was the game would amend the score of 12 dependent on spells, equipment and perks.

Likewise with hps it would store the base, but would generate the actual hps based on vitality, perks, equipment and spells.

It is not a simple change though, and the devs would need to, I think, have more reason than just retrospective vitality gains to justify it.

[jfunk]

I don't think it's a matter of OCD. I do sort of feel that purely random things with such long-lasting effects undermine the idea of a game that is about strategic play.

I disagree in that I feel it makes the characters unique and more interesting. If you happen to roll really well every time through the life of one particular minotaur, he could stand out above the others as that "really tough sob I had one time".

I LIKE not being able to control every minute detail of what happens. It feels less like playing a spreadsheet that way.

I mean, you could apply the OPs same logic to say that missing should be eliminated from the game. My character should do exactly how much damage he's "designed" to do with every single swing. Balance the monster health accordingly. No hit/miss, just damage done and damage mitigated stats for everything.

A little bit of random does not equal bad. 100% predictable is boring.

If I know exactly what the results of every choice will be every time, why bother playing at all?

[dbgager]

I don't think it's a matter of OCD. I do sort of feel that purely random things with such long-lasting effects undermine the idea of a game that is about strategic play.

I disagree in that I feel it makes the characters unique and more interesting. If you happen to roll really well every time through the life of one particular minotaur, he could stand out above the others as that "really tough sob I had one time".

I LIKE not being able to control every minute detail of what happens. It feels less like playing a spreadsheet that way.

I mean, you could apply the OPs same logic to say that missing should be eliminated from the game. My character should do exactly how much damage he's "designed" to do with every single swing. Balance the monster health accordingly. No hit/miss, just damage done and damage mitigated stats for everything.

A little bit of random does not equal bad. 100% predictable is boring.

If I know exactly what the results of every choice will be every time, why bother playing at all?

Really good point....I agree with this.

[seebs]

My division is between temporary and permanent randomness. Imagine that, instead of rolling for misses or hits, the game determined, at character creation, a sequence of ten rolls that would then be used in rotation throughout the life of the character. Low rolls on those mean that character will always miss a lot; high rolls mean that character will always hit a lot.

That sort of gets away from the fun kind of random and more into the "whoops, got unlucky, hosed now" kind of random.

FWIW, it's pretty easy to do health/energy mods retroactively if the modifiers are fixed. If every 2 points of vitality adds one health per level, say, then you can always do the calculation on the fly as you modify the stats. If they do something fancier, like changing the range of die rolls, then it's not as obvious what it should do. Interesting that training skills that give vitality appears to affect health, though.

[Halk]

D&D originally had you rolling for hps as you levelled, and rolling for stats when you created a character. It was a big mistake, and one they spent ages fudging in the rules time after time until they eventually came up with a point-buy system.

Rolling 1 at first level for a mage on the d4 for hps, and again at level 2 made a mage character very difficult indeed to play. While rolling 4 and then 4 made an enormous difference. I think that kind of randomness is bad for a game.

However if there's a little bit of random it's fine, and over time it does even out. Rolling 20d2 gives a result of 20-40, however the probability of a high or low result is near nil.

[seebs]

Angband's solution is that it rolls all your hit dice at character creation, but rerolls them until the total is basically near the middle of the range.

Wizardry did it by rerolling all your hit dice every level, and giving you either the new total or one more hit point, whichever was higher.

3E D&D did something where basically your con modifier was added to each hit die, so if you gained two points of con, you gained exactly 1hp per level. This scaled both up and down, and allowed you to easily compute the new hit point totals for things.

[amnnor]

The vitality system is flawed and its bad game design. While many things in gaming have evolved to a negative, overcoming this mechanic was actually something from the positive side: Ensuring that the choice to raise VIT when the player has already progressed to the lategame is still a choice that will offer enough benefits thus making it a valid choice. Next to that, removing random character generation factors helps to design the game content, which is always good for someone balancing a game, and additionally it removes the odds of a player getting stuck, because of terrible bad luck.... ...computer RNGs can do funny things, and there will be people out there who roll extremely bad. The player experience will suffer but the player does not understand why, as it is a degenerating process and not a "good choice/bad choice" situation with a learning effect.

Yes, there is no bible for making games. And yes, you are entitled to vote for the oldschool VIT system, and defend it like a maniac (cause thats the impression you make here). If you like shit, you like shit. Its okay. Doesnt mean you have to convinve other people that shit is good.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's flawed and bad game design, or that it is shit. It's the way they designed and balanced the game. I hadn't even noticed that it was this way until this topic was created. It's good to know, but I think it's good to know all the mechanics so you can make informed desicions at creation and level up.

If they add a check box similar to what they did for old school mode that's great for those that want it, but it's not something I will use. I think Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate 2 had an option like this, but I don't remember for sure.

[jfunk]

My division is between temporary and permanent randomness. Imagine that, instead of rolling for misses or hits, the game determined, at character creation, a sequence of ten rolls that would then be used in rotation throughout the life of the character. Low rolls on those mean that character will always miss a lot; high rolls mean that character will always hit a lot.

That sort of gets away from the fun kind of random and more into the "whoops, got unlucky, hosed now" kind of random.

FWIW, it's pretty easy to do health/energy mods retroactively if the modifiers are fixed. If every 2 points of vitality adds one health per level, say, then you can always do the calculation on the fly as you modify the stats. If they do something fancier, like changing the range of die rolls, then it's not as obvious what it should do. Interesting that training skills that give vitality appears to affect health, though.

You're not "hosed" if your character trends towards the lower side of the HP dice. He's just a bit softer and you have to be more careful with protecting him from damage. It's not game breaking, it just makes each play through a little different.

If the OP is so concerned about max HP to the point that he re-rolls his level ups, then what does he need HP for anyway? He can just re-load every battle until he beats it without anybody dying. Will probably save him a lot of time actually.

[seebs]

It doesn't completely kill you, but then, neither would playing through with a character who's got effectively -5 accuracy compared to an average character.

It puts way too much weight on a single die roll, MHO. There's certainly worse problems out there in the world, and the game's playable and all, but still.