This game needs more story?

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
Mortimer
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Mortimer »

Shrugn wrote:LoG is a Dungeon Crawler, and not a Rpg.
:o you are going to cause the forums to rise up with torches and pitchforks with that kind of thoughts :p

but seriously, D&D, when it started, more closely seemed to be a dungeon crawler, most of the early rule sets had only weapon skills and such, and the first D&D computer games were dungeon crawlers or focused on combat only. I think LoG really fits the RPG better than many newer action games with RPG elements because you can design your party as you want, specializing in the skills you want.
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Halk
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Halk »

You're absolutely wrong saying this isn't a true RPG. Jeebus.

First of all this is a CRPG. An RPG is done with several people sitting round a table.

I used to do that before the first CRPG was ever made (as did a great number of people here I'm sure).

The first CRPG I ever played was The Bards Tale. It got a glowing review in Dragon magazine (as did Dungeon Master). A CRPG was simply an attempt to take the players from an RPG and have one human controlling them on a computer, while the DM was replaced with the program (I think it was still programme back then!).

And just like Mortimer has said D&D was a dungeon crawler at it's heart when it started. In fact it RPG stood for both roll playing and role playing game.

Games like the Bards Tale on 8 bit computers tried to replicate maps and 3D movement and so on, and didn't really achieve it. Gold Box engine games tried the same. Wizardry and Alkabeth (Ultima series) had a hybrid text and graphics interface... All of them CRPGs.

The genre spread and divided into different kinds of games. There were isometric games, and 3D games like DM and EotB and then later Ultima Underworld etc. There were games like Ultima and Demon's Winter and so on.

Post-16 bit home computers the PC arrived and the games on that more resemble the modern RPG. The first installment of The Elder Scrolls arrived around then, it was the similar to a dungeon crawling first person action RPG except it was above ground. Many more appeared like that, and the constant enhancement of them brought us to where we are now.

The Bioware game was the isometric format, with AD&D rules and a turn based system that advanced in real time. They dropped that engine for a first person engine with NWN and have stuck with it ever since.

Every game I've mentioned is an RPG and none is more or less of an RPG than the others.

A new subgenre was born with Diablo. Diablo was a take on a text based game called Moria. Moria was a dungeon crawler, but not a 3D one. Diablo added fancy graphics and all sorts of enhancements.
Shrugn
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Shrugn »

:o you are going to cause the forums to rise up with torches and pitchforks with that kind of thoughts :p

but seriously, D&D, when it started, more closely seemed to be a dungeon crawler, most of the early rule sets had only weapon skills and such, and the first D&D computer games were dungeon crawlers or focused on combat only. I think LoG really fits the RPG better than many newer action games with RPG elements because you can design your party as you want, specializing in the skills you want.
Main difference, in my opinion, between D&D tabletop game and its adaptation as videogames, is that you have an interaction with other people when you're playing the pen'n'paper game. People would often slip into their character's skin and playfully talk to each other as if there were the actual character. You were playing your role, ergo "roleplaying".

That being said, I always felt D&D was quite dull - was it the game, full of complicated rules, or the DMs lacking imagination - but it all boiled down to very simple sessions: Door, monster, treasure, rinse and repeat until biggest monster and biggest reward. Sessions with real, twisted plots are rare... Which is why I find tabletop games like World of Darkness / Vampires more "roleplaying" by relying more on actual story and plot and how the players were interacting with each other as well as the world, than on dice roll and mathematics.

When D&D was adapted, be it Baldur's gate or Eye of the Beholder, the human factor disappeared, and all that was left were the mechanisms ( and, to some extent, the depicted universe ). Hard to tell a story there, even to yourself... Which is why I spoke of the Elder Scrolls games : by being sandboxes, and giving the player an almost completely free control from start to finish, you could be whatever you want. I like to tell myself stories when I play those games. I remember playing Fallout 3 ( ironically the weakest, imo, of Betheda's RPG ) and choosing to be a "bad boy" up to the point I was being tracked by head hunters, where I told myself "I realize I've been too far, now I have to stop and redeem myself. Too bad for Gigaton, I already blew it up :') But let's play a trick on those rich fools up in the tower...".

While you CAN tell yourself a story when playing LoG, there is a huge difference between having your imagination at work and being given the actual mean to do what you want.
But AGAIN, I LOVE LoG ( would I be on the game boards if this wasn't the case :p ), I just think there is a huge difference between Dungeon-master like which relies on gameplay and puzzle-solving, and what I brand RPG which relies on plot and choices.

Edit:
It seems the whole "RPG" term has been twisted over the years, actually.

RPG, as an acronym, stands for Roleplaying Game. As I stated earlier, D&D was encouraging the players to act and do stuff as if they were their characters, in order to create a mood during a session which, strictly from the angle of mechanisms, was maths and dices.
If you remove the human interactions and as such remove the fun in "acting", what is left? Mechanisms. Would that still be a ROLEPLAYING game? I don't think so.

I never heard of the term CRPG, which stands I guess for Computer Roleplaying game? I'd say this term is already wrong. Or what it would imply for the table RPG is wrong. Either it is not a ROLEPLAYING game anymore and as such does not deserves the "rpg" tag, or it denies the ROLEPLAYING part of the table game and dumb it down to mechanics. So for me, "crpg" are not a subset of RPG, they are a completely different kind of games inspired by the technical rules of the pen and paper games.

The same goes for your example of Diablo3, which may have been a derivative from a game which already inspired by tabletop games, but it was not linked to RPG anymore. To the point that Diablo-like games actually got their own genre : Hack and Slash.

That's why I think ElderScrolls are better ROLEPLAYING games than most of the modern (and ancient) production : you got to play your role and do whatever you'd like to do. it's up to the game, acting as the arbiter, to put obstacles on your road, and get the world in which you're evolving to react to your actions. You can help the damsel in distress, sell her to the slavers, ignore her, or even kill her. Up to you.

Games like Dungeon Master, EoB, LoG and co are only centred on game mechanisms and strategy - drawing maps, leveling characters, killing monsters, looting treasure chests, avoiding traps, solving puzzles. They aren't revolving around a particular story, or, rather, the story is just here to set a mood. LoG perfectly understood this and mixed the oldschool gameplay with some modern elements ( the notes, the Dream ) so that they would set the mood they wanted to achieve. But, again, there is no "roleplay" any more. This is a different type of game which should get its own genre, "Dungeon Crawler Game" being the most obvious. It probably didn't get a proper name because it disappeared before given the chance, in an ever-moving world where things needed to be categorized.

But don't get me wrong : my issue resides in the fact that nowdays, a very, very broad selection of games are labelled "RPG" where there isn't any reason to call them so. Again, Final Fantasy and most of the Japanese so-called "rpg" do not have the slightest hint of actual rpg in them, except for leveling and gearing up. I think everyone on this board will agree that there is something rotten there :p
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juho
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by juho »

Remember to look for at the environment assets. There's some story there if you read between the lines.
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Tomm
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Tomm »

I absolutely agree about having a little more story, and also I'd love to see facial expressions for character portraits and some dialogues.. it would make it feel more "alive" (yeah I'm a Lands of lore fan).. but a lot of people probably won't agree.
Lmaoboat
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Lmaoboat »

juho wrote:Remember to look for at the environment assets. There's some story pars if you read between the lines.
OMG,
SpoilerShow
So that's what Cthulu pushing that black cube was about.
Blahblah
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Blahblah »

Having just finished my first playthrough, I also hope that the sequel will have more story, exposition and NPC's.

I think Lands of Lore 1 is a good example how a little more story and interaction with NPC's can make the game more interresting, without taking too much time away from the gameplay.

Since the production-costs have been taken in several times and the game-engine is present, I hope that for the next Grimrock game, there will be time and money for adding more story.
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mrgaming4cheap
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by mrgaming4cheap »

I like the story line. Older games didn't have much story. Anyone remember the story line from doom 1? It was only one or two paragraphs long. I can count on one hand the number of game story lines I actually like. I'll take a one paragrpah story line any day over the cut scene, "you're the chosen one", save the galaxy dribble that most modern RPGs have. Don't get me wrong, I like to have a little story in an RPG but most games get carried away with it.
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Crashbanito
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by Crashbanito »

The story is short, sweet, and to the point. It's condensed and tied to your goal for survival. I like to think of the game as a single quest in what will hopefully be many.
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wickermoon
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Re: This game needs more story?

Post by wickermoon »

Shrugn wrote: If you remove the human interactions and as such remove the fun in "acting", what is left? Mechanisms. Would that still be a ROLEPLAYING game? I don't think so.
So you say human interaction is what defines an RPG? I would strongly object. As the name says - and as you point out several times - roleplaying is what defines an RPG. Even sitting in front of a computer, playing a game, can therefore account as playing a roleplaying game. Baldur's Gate, for example, is an RPG. You play your role by deciding which answers to give, which companions to take with you, which quests to do and which don't. You decide how your character acts by playing the role of your character. Or at least that's the theory. Games can't help it that some people are just playing them for fun, rushing through them and not heeding their story. I've read some posts here claiming that no good story ever came from a video game. Well, I've read my fair share of fantasy novels and I've gotta admit that BG(2) had a better story than some of them. Best example for a fantasy series that got progressively worse is the Drizzt Do'Urden series. I loved the first three books and several books thereafter, but let's be honest: The story is repetitive and in most parts not even original. The same goes for (A)D&D table-top sessions. I've seen some sessions being so incredibly good and some being the worst in story-telling history (personally I've found most fun while playinth Cthulu). Nonetheless, roleplaying isn't solely dependant on a story. While having a good story adds much to it, its main focus lies on roleplaying.
Unfortunately. Grimrock doesn't let you play your role. Sure, you play characters and decide how the progress through their "dungeoneering journey". But you never actually play a role. That doesn't mean, the game is bad. I loved it (except for this very sensitive input recognition. That is the one point I hate about this game), but I do say that LoG is not an RPG in an hstorical sense. As someone else already said, leveling up your character isn't roleplaying. But RPG is an acronym used for more than that for quite a while now.
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