Things the devs didn't think through

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
CV77
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:52 am

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by CV77 »

Yeah, didn't want to get confrontational or inflammatory at all.

But if you play a game and certain things just don't fit, you point them out. How else are the devs supposed to get any useful feedback if all comments would be like "Great game guys, keep the good work"?

Of course it's bad if you get all bitchy and instead of giving feedback you moan and rage (Mass Effect 3 anybody? :) ) I get by with English but it's not my native language so sometimes I don't get the choice of words correctly. Sorry.

My point stands though.
CV77
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:52 am

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by CV77 »

Nachtfischer wrote:So basically it's a balancing issue you're talking about, right? Could e.g. be solved by giving the characters more exp in general or making the traits available on lower levels.

I haven't played enough of the game yet, so I'm not able to tell if you're right. But if you were, it'd shurely be a valid point.
Hm, I dunno. Maybe rebalance the game so you can get enough points to maximize two skills instead of one. Or maybe not even that. You could still choose to redistribute them in several trees and not max anything but you would have at least the option to reach those interesting perks in the side skills.

I'd really love to know what Master Assassin does :)
User avatar
stage
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:34 pm
Location: Bulgarian reality

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by stage »

CV77 wrote: I'd really love to know what Master Assassin does :)
SpoilerShow
Is insta-kill if you backstab
User avatar
Halk
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by Halk »

I've already commented that I think the perks put too much emphasis on skills and make skill choice too important. I'd rather you couldn't get it very wrong and you couldn't get it very right, so that you didn't have to min/max, so that you didn't get to level 6 and realise your party was not going to make it because you weren't able to use a crystal ball and predict things. I think it was ridiculous under D&D rules in NWN expansions where you quite literally had to plan your character at epic level, and then pick everything in the right order and all the right stats so you could get there, and if you didn't you'd end up with a half baked character.

I would imagine the devs released the game fully aware of what level people will reach and how many skill points they'll get. I find it a very attractive idea that the party of adventurers I take through the dungeon will have twice as much still to go before they reach high level.

In RPGs if you put all of your eggs in one basket you become overpowered in some respects. Or to put it differently if you put half of your eggs in one basket and half in another you end up significantly worse. With the way LoG is just now it actively encourages you to go down one skill tree to the neglect of the others.

Let's take armours for example.

Level 1-25 gives you in total.
Protection +3
Health +35
Light armour proficiency
Heavy armour proficiency
Shield expert

Level 26-50 gives you in total
Health +65
Evasion +5
Protection +27

Given the choice of the 1-25 benefits or the 26-50 then I'd obviously take the 26-50.

All other skills follow the same progression, as you go up the skill levels they become progressively better. This means that taking a skill anywhere else becomes progressively worse. The exception is the four elemental mage skills which seem to top out halfway up. However if you have a look at the spellcraft tree then it's very attractive to go to level 18 (50% faster casting).

If you were to draw a graph of characters relative power then it would be a strange shaped graph indeed, because it would increase faster and faster until the first skill was topped off, and then it would move very slowly.

It doesn't make very much RP sense either. A wizard isn't going to gain expertise just with fire spells for a few months and then suddenly get better at casting spells in general but not any better at fire spells. Likewise a fighter isn't going to gain fighting prowess in just wearing armour for a few months and then just wielding a sword for a few months.

I don't think this leads to an enjoyable character progression. I've also never liked uberskills anyway, I don't like extreme powered abilities... I think they're for the realms of modern challenge removed RPGs. So what can be done? The perks themselves can be cut back so that the 26-50 progression doesn't yield such magnificent bonuses, this would mean there wasn't a compelling reason to stick with just one skill tree. Alternatively it could become progressively more expensive to buy skills in one tree if you have no other tree close by. For example if you're buying skills in a tree and you have no tree within 10 skill points then it costs an extra point to do so. Alternatively the game could automatically spend half of the skill points on the core skill tree (assassination, armour/athletics, spellcraft) and that skill tree would be unavailable for extra skill points.

When D&D went for 3rd edition rules they, in my opinion, lost the plot entirely and added a whole slew of game breaking feats and abilities. They had to balance things out by being extremely restrictive with them and ensuring that a character had to build for them from level 1 and ensuring that a complex set of pre-requisites had to be met. The end result was effectively level limiting the skills so that characters couldn't get them until high level. You have to do a cludge like that if you have very high end skills.

There's little balance tweaks that can be done to avoid the game having only one realistic choice for the player to make (I'm aware you aren't forced to pick the most powerful option, but deliberately playing under ability, or deliberately making bad choices is poor).

As for the title of the thread I think it's quite harsh sounding. This was a game produced by 4 guys. It was their company's first game, and they've done an exceptional job. Without a massive team behind them though, and a great deal of resources to test the game out I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to have opportunities to polish the game, and balance things out after release. But it's been clarified and no harm is done, so let's not all get nasty :)

In principle though, I have no problem at all with having skills that are either unattainable in the current dungeon, or attainable only at great sacrifice in other abilities. That presents players with proper choices about how to progress their character without forcing them to min/max.
CV77
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:52 am

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by CV77 »

Halk wrote:So what can be done? The perks themselves can be cut back so that the 26-50 progression doesn't yield such magnificent bonuses.
Or maybe the devs can add an "Insanity" difficulty that would unlock only after completing Hard. And you could import your old party. That way you would have another 50 to distribute to side skills which on Insanity you would probably need a lot :)

If Master Assassin instakills with Backstab then it's a fantastic perk because it's fairly easy to backstab slow and powerful opponents like Ogres and Golems.
User avatar
Halk
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by Halk »

CV77 wrote:
Halk wrote:So what can be done? The perks themselves can be cut back so that the 26-50 progression doesn't yield such magnificent bonuses.
Or maybe the devs can add an "Insanity" difficulty that would unlock only after completing Hard. And you could import your old party. That way you would have another 50 to distribute to side skills which on Insanity you would probably need a lot :)

If Master Assassin **spoiler** then it's a fantastic perk because it's fairly easy to backstab slow and powerful opponents like Ogres and Golems.
Well, the insane difficulty doesn't cut it... because you're still pretty much straight-jacketed in skill choice if you're any way sensible..

And a fantastic perk? I disagree, a game breaker... I don't know if you ever played Skyrim... but when you combined smithing/enchanting and alchemy the game broke dead, and I found my enjoyment of the game vanished. I've found the same in any game where it allows you to become overpowered.

I don't think that skill is quite the game breaker that Skyrim suffers from, however compare that perk to what you would get spending points in another skill and I think that illustrates the game compelling you to continue down one skill path until you finish it, and then spending the next 12 levels dropping skillpoints into another skill for little effect.. until you get the next massive boost.
Ugm
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:28 pm

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by Ugm »

Halk - very interesting post. I feel that something can be improved within current skill system. It's kinda fresh, but it was a bit disappointing to me when I discovered that I have to focus on just one skill because otherwise I won't get to high level. I'm not min-maxer type, so it's even worse for me when levels 26-50 are OP in comparison to 1-25.
User avatar
stubbie
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:40 am
Location: Portland, NSW, Australia

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by stubbie »

CV77 wrote: I mean nobody can ever get anywhere near Iron Body (Athletics), Armor Master (Armors), Ninja Master (Dodge), Master Assassin (Assassination), Archmage (Spellcraft) and Staff Master (Staff Defense) simply because you'd have to put 0 points in your weapons/magic skill trees in which case you'd never leave the first level alive.
Okay I am probably really missing something here myself or perhaps I'm just plain stupid...the second alternative is probably correct.

I saw somewhere that devs have stated that the max character level is 50 and once you surpass that you simply don't get any more skill points.
So if at each level up you get 4 skill points then by the time you get to level 50 you will have received a total of 200 points.
So why is the OP saying that you can never max out any of your skills?

Or is character level 50 simply not achievable yet?

Once again I apologise if this question is truly as dumb as I'm guessing it is. :oops:
User avatar
Halk
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by Halk »

I think, Stubbie that the OP wasn't aware of the level 50 cap. You can't reach level 50 with the current dungeon.
SpoilerShow
People are getting to about level 13
I think that's where the OP's problem is.. since you can only go so high the skill tree is pretty barren looking.

My problem isn't quite the same, my problem is that because you can focus on one and only one skill the game becomes a bit less interesting, and character development is one dimensional.

If you could get 200 skill points then the effective way to do that would be to max out one, then max out another then another, then the last one. I do have a problem with that though because it means every dozen or so levels you'll get an uber power, and the levels in between nothing will change greatly. It makes level progression quite uneven.

As for never leaving the first level alive if you stick to just one skill. I disagree entirely! The more I stick to just one skill the better my party is.
JPred
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:49 am

Re: Things the devs didn't think through

Post by JPred »

After reading the thread I am of the mind (even though I'm not that gar in the game yet...) that more experience from enemies should be added or at the very least a New Game+ where we keep all the old stats & skills but loose equipment & items. New Game+ usually has something like that but it'd also be nice, if such a route is taken, to see an added bonus & not just a repeat of the levels. Like new game+ only gets the random level generation I see lots of people asking for. Another option: hidden items that are highly powerful in one aspect but super weak in another. An example of such an item would be immunity from metal ring or amulet that make you basically immune to the knight's spears but makes you super weak to blunt damage or the like.
Such things would significantly increase the replay value of the game even for people not simply in it for skill collection. If they have to play it once through to get the special items or random levels & can't just start a new game with those features they'll be more likely increasing the value of the game with out much change.
I'm only on level 4 right now & making my characters into 1 or 2 skills... I just assumed that my rouge who's focusing mostly on daggers & toughness would be able to get 1 skill to around level 50 & another to about 30 & 1 or to more to level 10.
Sounds like I'll be disappointed.
I haven't seen it happen but I guess spider eggs spawn spiders? Guess I'll camp level 3 till I'm Zeus then. :-p
Post Reply