FULLMETALJ wrote:
I decided to address what he did because he couldn't demo the game.
"Please, provide a demo so that I don't pirate!"
That kind of behavior is senseless, pirating indie games is wrong, no matter how you look at it.
While you may not agree, morally, without OP's rationale, saying it is "senseless" is just being obtuse. He had a very clear reason for doing what he did. It's debatable whether it is right or wrong, but senseless it is not.
Most anti-piracy crusaders, especailly the kind that swear and rant and cry tend to be purposefully obtuse. They'll never admit you have a point and they'll NEVER admit that piracy of a good game actually HELPS that game's sales as has been shown over and over again in examples like the OP's.
Same goes for any kind of media really. I was never much of a music fan before 'piracy' but when I got out there and could try for free, I went out and over the last 10 years have bought over 1000 albums I NEVER would have bought. I know numerous people with stories like that. As for the people who pirate and still don't buy the good games, let's be honest for r moment here: That kind of person would never have bought the game in the first place, they're cheap. No study any time by ANYONE has shown that p[iracy= lost sales. There HAVE however been numerous studies to show that piracy helps indie musicians and that likely extends to indie developers as well.
But hey, why would the anti-piracy baby crusader want to address facts and evidence when he can swear at people like the OP who BOUGHT THE GAME from his throne of self-righteous idiocy?
Isaac wrote:No it is not. Trying to pay one's way out of it does not absolve one's guilt; it's not one's right to steal another person's work ~whatever the silly rational. I do not understand how this can be looked at as 'it's all okay in the end'. It's not.
Society changes and laws and morality change with it. Nobody is or should feel guilty here. OP bought the game, devs got a sale they never would have gotten without piracy. Get with the times or the times will run over you grandpa.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
regomar wrote:Society changes and laws and morality change with it. Nobody is or should feel guilty here. OP bought the game, devs got a sale they never would have gotten without piracy. Get with the times or the times will run over you grandpa.
lol; you are certainly part of the problem.
The only people that think that way, or rationalize for self interest that way, are people that are never on the other end creating what is being stolen.
Last edited by Isaac on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
You need a good hard look at the dictionary.
theft (θɛft)
— n
1. criminal law, the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession
Intellectual property violations are not theft. Period. Nobody has EVER gone to jail for receiving 'stolen' bits over the Internet. Even in the fake goods tangible market, the word used is NEVER theft. It's counterfeiting. There's a REASON for that. making copies of something like a DVD or CD does not meet the definition of THEFT. You cannot win this argument. You are clearly and demonstrably wrong to anyone with a dictionary and basic understanding of the English language.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
That is not factually correct. Nobody has ever gone to jail for theft or receiving stolen goods when it comes to software piracy - or anything similar. They are entirely different crimes in both the UK and the US. I don't know of any country that treats them in the same way. They are not only treated differently but they are different.
This thread is utterly pointless now. It's been established that a demo would be beneficial.
The thread has now disintegrated into white knighting and face palming.
Guys - I appreciate you like the game, but don't feel obliged to become it's champion defending it from everything.
regomar wrote:You need a good hard look at the dictionary.
theft (θɛft)
-- n
1. criminal law, the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession
Intellectual property violations are not theft. Period. Nobody has EVER gone to jail for receiving 'stolen' bits over the Internet. Even in the fake goods tangible market, the word used is NEVER theft. It's counterfeiting. There's a REASON for that. making copies of something like a DVD or CD does not meet the definition of THEFT. You cannot win this argument. You are clearly and demonstrably wrong to anyone with a dictionary and basic understanding of the English language.
Absurd semantics. Theft is theft ~it's sufficient to simply be taking it. That rational doesn't work if you are in their warehouse leaving with a box, even if you plan to drop the money for it in the mail later.
Halk wrote:That is not factually correct. Nobody has ever gone to jail for theft or receiving stolen goods when it comes to software piracy - or anything similar. They are entirely different crimes in both the UK and the US. I don't know of any country that treats them in the same way. They are not only treated differently but they are different.
It's a shame too; but I didn't claim that they did, I mentioned tangible object ~like a tv, or a painting. Do you really rationalize it as different from stealing a painting from an artshow ~so long as you intend to buy it later? Really?
Last edited by Isaac on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
Haha. I am sorry but a quick search for "theft by replication" turning up 0 results leads me to believe that you have just made up that term.
Not so hot.
Theft is taking someones property without his permission. Taking entails removing that property from the previous ownership.
If you copy a game that you have rightfully purchased, you are not removing anything from anyones ownership. You are not taking anything.
How is this a hard concept?
If you buy a box for 3 bucks and then go and build a box just like the one you bought, give the new box to your friend, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GO TO JAIL FOR THEFT.
How do you even come to believe that?
Last edited by spreadsheets on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
You need a good hard look at the dictionary.
theft (θɛft)
— n
1. criminal law, the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession
Intellectual property violations are not theft. Period. Nobody has EVER gone to jail for receiving 'stolen' bits over the Internet. Even in the fake goods tangible market, the word used is NEVER theft. It's counterfeiting. There's a REASON for that. making copies of something like a DVD or CD does not meet the definition of THEFT. You cannot win this argument. You are clearly and demonstrably wrong to anyone with a dictionary and basic understanding of the English language.
Isaac wrote:
lol; you are certainly part of the problem.
The only people that think that way, or rationalize for self interest that way, are people that are never on the other end creating what is being stolen.
My husband writes erotica professionally. (I know, don't ask) People pirate his work CONSTANTLY. He has had numerous previous pirates tell him how much they loved his work and that they never would have found it without piracy. He has experimented with putting stories up for free and the more it spread the more money he ended up making.
Bands put their albums up on piracy sites all the time even though they still sell albums. Most recently was a band called Colosso that released an album on The Pirate Bay. Their sales and concert attendance went up wildly due to the free publicity piracy provides.
spreadsheets wrote:If someone buys the game and then copies it (This is how piracy works.), then gives it to other people and they give it around some more.
THAT IS NOT THEFT.
Yes it is. If someone buys the game then gives it around, they have stolen it by replication. The others that accept it have stolen it by not paying for it. In the real world when they catch people that do this with tangible objects, they go to jail for theft, or receiving stolen goods.
regomar wrote:Society changes and laws and morality change with it. Nobody is or should feel guilty here. OP bought the game, devs got a sale they never would have gotten without piracy. Get with the times or the times will run over you grandpa.
lol; you are certainly part of the problem.
The only people that think that way, or rationalize for self interest that way, are people that are never on the other end creating what is being stolen.
Downloading copyright materiel is legal in my country as long as it's not for profit or P2P distribution, so no, it's not theft, especially since I own the game anyway. If you are trying to take a legal stance, you're wrong, if you are taking a moral stance, you're trying to force your morals on people with the assumption that they are superior.
This thread kinda got out of hand, I just wanted to suggest that a demo would boost sales.
Isaac wrote:Absurd semantics. Theft is theft ~it's sufficient to simply be taking it. That rational doesn't work if you are in their warehouse leaving with a box, even if you plan to drop the money for it in the mail later.
You clearly do not have a working understanding of the English language. You also completely disregarded y point and replaced it with one of your own. Your warehouse nonsense is irrelevant. In the warehouse example, someone is taking a physical good with intent to deprive another of it: IE theft. Never in the history of the Internet has a pirate taken an item away from someone depriving them of it. The difference is clear and easy for a child to see. The fact that you keep bringing up irrelevant examples that actually ARE theft clearly demonstrates that you don't have so much as a basic handle on what piracy entails.
