[MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

[sapientCrow]

Hey Akroma,
Took me a bit to get around to giving this mod a dedicated review. It really deserves it so here it is.
First off I think this is a definite masterpiece. It shines and it is clear it took a great deal of time to fully flesh it out and refine it.

The crafting system to my knowledge is the only one I have experienced that had so many elaborate recipes. Transmutation/Necrochemy/Reforge all were an amazing addition and added a new dimension to the game and a use for many items that I would otherwise simply discard. I actually spent a great deal of time transmuting and such before I found the philosopher's stone. And that stone was just an added awesome bonus to the system since I could simply pick up items to see whether they could be crafted into something new. And the other thing was that these spells/skills were actual useful. I did in fact craft and then use what I crafted as I played through the Labyrinth. So the craft system really shined.

Bone ritual systems. Another really innovative system which I found to be actually useful at times. It was not as useful as crafting and could have used more recipes as well as perhaps an increase in rarity for the components. As I had so many bones at the end I had to transmute them to 0 weight teeth because I figured I would find super awesome end game recipes. I did not experiment so much with them so I am not sure if there were secret ones I missed. However the ability to combine new items in containers was a really cool innovation and I liked it for the most part. I feel it just needed more refinement and perhaps increased rarity and greater boons from it.

The alternate Dimensions...
So amazing. When I first found Yggdrasil I cheered. I have always liked games that add other dimensions and the ability to shift back and forth. And to find a multiple of alternate dimensions was a surprise and exciting. In this Labyrinth I truly felt like I was in another world not just a Dungeon. The criticism I will make is that in some dimensions namely Shadowlight it became very unclear as to what to do. I was not sure if I needed to extinguish flames or open gates in a certain order to find secrets or some other mechanic. There were too many options given the way you expanded the mechanics at times to make sense of it. Great hints and clarity on how to find secrets and what mechanics were in use here would have helped a lot. Aetherlands however was awesome. I admit I was extraordinarily annoyed at first because I thought really I am going to have to pop back and forth in these totally short windows. However once I found the artifacts which were not only useful in combat scenarios but boosted my time in Aetherlands I was ok with it. In fact the time length is so long with all artifacts I had to go away from my computer to force it to pop me out where I wanted it to. That was really fun and unique to uncover those artifacts. The cube was a bit painful and time consuming. Although it was fun and different than all the rest. I am more of a precision player and running from cubes was not fun but the different areas I unlocked were cool enough.

Size of the Labyrinth. This thing is gigantic and at times I did wonder if it would end. But then again I actually liked the size and the fact that every time I thought it would end some new element was added. I like to find secrets however and at a certain point I began to lose track of which areas I had been in and uncovered. This was absolutely obvious in the pit maze. I think there were secrets in there I had no idea I had opened nor do I know how I opened them. And others I could not figure out how to until I read about them. It got seriously convoluted in its scope and size there with no clear directions. It is after all a maze but some more elements that gave cues to uncovering the secrets. Most of the other floors were ok as I was able to mostly retain them enough to know where I had uncovered secrets and where I had not. Still it would be helpful and I know this is a big task to create a list of secrets by level for those of who want to get 100%. The size was definitely not a problem but for some it may have been. It could have easily been created in chapters or sequels or prequels whatever.

The new specialty weapons. These were great. I intentionally for the first time created a front line mage for the idea I would have use of a multitude of staff defense weaponry. I would of however liked to see more staff defense items in a similar progression to other weaponry. Unarmed was ok and assassination shined. I played on hard and without my assassin it would have been extraordinarily difficult to overcome certain areas if I could not have insta killed them or had such low delay weapons that I could stun lock them with just my rogue. The problem of course is that assassinate weaponry do not count as a dagger and thus will not assassinate or use special attacks. That serpent dagger was amazing but often times with so much immunity and the fact it did not proc special attacks was not incredibly useful. Some more refinement and some added earlier weapons would have been great. I know it would be hard to designate a weapon that reads assassinate a dagger but maybe something could be done. Also the immunity at times became quite rough. Some of the best weapons were doing 0 damage to enemies because they had the added element and were not reading any physical damage I guess? Never the less the added scope of the base mechanics by adding these new weapons had me not only seriously thinking about the party i created but also creating a very unique party. In fact I could not get all things to be of use with a single party as I had to sacrifice certain magick schools to do staff and spell craft early on and if I wanted to utilize the ranger gear I was limited on what spells I could have. Which makes it have re-playability of course. However because of the size I will take a bit before I return to it with a new party and play it again.

New mechanics. Wisp shift was the first mechanic I saw that really blew me away as being put into grimrock. Of course I had already went down a line for specialization at that point so I missed out on it early on but the dagger and later on with the dagger and eventually the spell it worked out. It would of been nice to have more daggers early on to not miss the secrets that are there. Since going back to them at a later stage the items are of little use. Pit trap room especially the larger one above the pit maze in theory was great. I think however pit traps should always be used sparingly because of lag and timing they are not precise. Those traps move so fast i fell so many times in the larger room and that room had a number of secrets to be found as well. A little over the top frustrating there. Also that early area where you place things on pressure plates and open doors and then open other doors and finally weave yourself to the center an unleash those spore throwers was a little confusing.

The new spells. There were a huge amount of spells added. And they actually were useful and the fact that they had overlapping and upgraded effects was awesome. I wish I knew about ice and the healing and how it refilled food earlier because I was starving a lot until I think level 9. As I said I loved those crafting spells but the new damage ones were great as well. I admit to using them to burn up enemies through walls and grates before they could touch me. I used extinguish a lot as well as a mechanic and a tactical advantage. Plenty others I used as well. Of course due to the vastness of the spell system it did become laborious to remember them all. I would have liked to see more of the overlapping and upgrade with perhaps less spells. Again this is just refinement.

Story and Lore. This was sparse but then again it was greater because of the size of the Labyrinth than many mods. The banter was cool and so was the item descriptions. I would have loved to see more about the dimensions and how they react with the actual plane and more details like this fleshed out.

Music. As an audiophile I love when modders add new music. For the most part the music was great but there were parts although nostalgic that were grating on the nerves. I think that was in Shadowlight and Aetherlands.

All in all I really dug your mod and thank you for the extensive time you put into creating it. Mostly all the things that I would see tweaked all relate to more refinement and testing. The overall design and layout was well thought out and worked very well.

There is probably other things to say and maybe I will edit this over time but this is the gist of what I wanted to share.
thanks again.

[andyroosta]

Nice review sapientCrow...i really enjoyed the mod too..one of the very best.

[akroma222]

Hey sapientCrow!
Wow, thank you very much for giving Labyrinth of Lies a good play through and for then reviewing as extensively as you have. Your review was exciting to read for me... it is great to hear feedback of all kinds and yours was balanced and informative.

Crafting and Bonerituals – I was very glad to hear you enjoyed these. Particularly the point you made about being able to get extra mileage from items you would otherwise discarded (I don’t need this cloth shirt anymore! Throwing daggers are useless if I don’t have a throwing rogue... haha). This is definitely what I had in mind with the crafting spells. Hopefully I left enough clues and hints about which items to transmute/reforge/necromorph/crystalise... and for the completionists... Philosopher’s Stone. The bonecrafting I too believe could benefited from more rituals (there were only around 6 for each bonecraft equipment) and I think I could have made it a little more user friendly. Incidently, did you try spell crafting any of the skulls and bones?? A couple of combinations grant massive EXP rewards which can help bolster your party level late game.

I will definitely be keeping both systems for a LoG2 mod, but they will run a little different... The crafting spells (eg Reforging Flames) will be combined with spells like Enchant Fire Arrow to condense the total number of spells in the game. So you can still make your fire arrows, bombs, explosive firearm rounds etc and craft up special fire-related items. Bonecrafting will be made into a single Bonecraft Ritual spell (need Head hunter to cast it) which when cast will check over equipped armour, weapons, accessories and the mouse item – (you may have a bone amulet, venomfang pick, bone helmet and a skull in mouse cursor). Each different piece of bonecraft triggering equipment will add a different effect to the spell. I guess therefore bonecrafting will move away from permanent bonuses to champions and be more of a versatile utility spell.... I would interested to hear your thoughts on these changes.

Alternate Dimensions – Good good good! I am glad you liked these. You are spot on with your mention of ‘too many mechanics with not enough clues and hints about which ones to investigate’. The Shadowlight Divide probably suffered the most here, as you say. Unfortunately my organisational methods were not great or at least not consistent throughout the mod. What this resulted in was new mechanics introduced a various times though the game (extinguishing floor lanterns for example) in certain areas, and then not having those mechanics do anything in other parts of the game. I think a lot of this culminated in Shadowlight. Also I felt that level was probably the weakest in puzzle design – too much random stuff just thrown in. Admittedly I was in a rush finishing that level and even deleted whole sections of it a number of times because I felt it was just too crap and ad hoc.

Glad you enjoyed the Aetherlands... I felt the idea was quick original and novel – and quite challenging in a grimrocky kinda way! I also agree with you regarding the Cube manufacturing in the Underworld – to be honest, sometimes the feel of it works... running through a grating maze with cubes chasing you around.... but at other times I felt it dragged and was a bit laborious. Again, the Underworld level and puzzle design could have been given some more attention.

Secret listings – it is funny, one of my playtesters and friend hounded me for a level by level secret list but I blatantly refused due to the number of secrets (around 270 I believe) and the complexity or organising them. This bleeds into the comments made about the size of the Labyrinth – it is indeed a massive thing! And playing early on from a fairly linear progression up until mid-late game where everything just kind of branches out really can make for a lot of confusion. And for completionists in us it can become frustrating even. Especially consider the number of “secrets” that are literally chests or areas that you can plainly see but cannot get to until much later. For my next mod I will be keeping a level by level listing of secrets up to date as I create it.

Regarding weaponry – next mod will include just as many stave weapons as the other groups. Also the dagger / assassination issue will no longer be relevant with the new skill/weapon traits system of LoG2. It is great that the mod had you wanting to design a specialty party to make use of the new additions to weapons and other items – and the re-playability due to not being able to capture all of the new features and items with 1 party is exactly what I was going for. Personally I think assassination rogues are over powered due to their ability to chain hit monsters with short cooldown weapons – and also access to the Cane of Cloak and Dagger. Even so, not game game breakingly overpowered – just a lot of power and a lot of fun!

Yes the Wisp Shift spell is given to you at a point where you can only just afford to learn it skill point wise and where you can then fairly quickly go back through the previous levels and hit those wisp shift secrets... (giving you access to Chalice of Everlife and the Lightning Blast spell very early) but as you say, if you are not prepared or aware the spell is coming then your skill point allocation thus far can certainly put you out of the running for those secrets for quite some time. This is a spell I will be condensing too.... lvl 1 Blink spell – lets you blink in and out as blink usually does – but the upgraded version at lvl 3 lets you shift around using the wisp shift portals. So it will be well known to the player that that is possible instead of having it sprung on you after it is too late.

Agreed on the moving trapdoor puzzles... the timing there could definitely be improved – and yes it certainly does put a strain on performance.

sapientCrow, thank you again ever so much for the time you have invested in playing and reviewing Labyrinth of Lies.. I am currently laying the groundwork and systems for my next mod (for LoG2) and feedback like this is exactly what I need right now. I would be keen for you to be involved in this project in any way you wanted to be... Your detailed advice has been great, THANK YOU!!!

All the best
Akroma

[saigyo]

Hello Akroma222,

Firstly let me say what a blast I am having with your mod. Absolutely top notch. Thank you very much.

I am really stuck though at the end of the engine rooms. How do I get down to the next level. I went to your video and it seems the gates are open at the start of the engine room so you can go down the stairs but my gates are shut! What did I miss?

Thank you.

Tom

[saigyo]

Ach! Found the switches. Okay, into the Palace!

Thank you again. I am blown away by the generosity and hard work of yourself (and others who contributed) to making this mod. Talk about Grimrock on steroids.

Tom

[akroma222]

Hey Tom!
Thank you for the kind words, very glad you are enjoying it.
Yeah the Engine Rooms full map puzzle was a bit of a tricky one... it could have been done better I think
I usually have to trouble shoot people through that puzzle, good that you are onto The Palace.

Any and all feedback is appreciated, myself and a few friends are working on a mod for Grimrock 2 (Legacy of Lies)
....so I am all ears if you have any thoughts on improvements etc

Akroma

[Trantox]

Hi Akroma!
You created really good mod, thank you!

I have a small problem, I can't use the Grimoire of Belt Bonecraft. "Only Fighters and Rogues who posses the Head Hunter trait may perfom rituals with the Trophy Belt..."
Minotaur Fighter level 9, 1st trait Agile, 2nd trait Head Hunter; skills: athletics 5, armor 14, axes 26; Belt equipped, in the belt: skull, skull, bloody skull, bone amulet, lizard fang, lizard fang. Mod version 3.6 (nexusmods).

[wagtunes]

I know I'm very late to this party (seems most of these people are long gone) but I was really enjoying your mod. Really well done. But I can't get past the 27 minute mark of your video walkthrough part 3. No sooner do I get to the button and push it the teleporter sends me back to the start. I've watched your video, I don't know how many times but I can't get anywhere near the delay time you get between pressing the button and moving towards the door. And it seems no matter which teleporter I wait for, all of them send me back to the start.

So I'm going to have to abandon this one. Shame, because I was really loving the work you put into it. But I am obviously not fast enough to hit that button and move towards the door.

But I do recognize the great job you did.

[Isaac]

I know I'm very late to this party (seems most of these people are long gone)

Akroma222 is a regular poster; and was logged in today.

[akroma222]

I know I'm very late to this party (seems most of these people are long gone)

Akroma222 is a regular poster; and was logged in today.

Hey Isaac
Cheers for directing wagtunes my way ... haven't heard from them though
I only just saw and checked this thread (Im a month late hahah)

Wagtunes - if you are still interested in persevering with my horribly mean dungeon...
send me a PM and we will have you pressing buttons unbelievably fast in no time