Grimrock

I remember seeing a screenshot from a Log1 mod where there were multiple elevations in the same level and an open set of stairs connecting them.

Is this possible to do in LoG2 to move between elevations, rather than using ladders? The ladders are a nice idea, and it's great climbing up them, but it's really inelegant that to climb down them you have to fall off the elevation above. Stairs between elevations would be so much nicer...

I want stairs that I can implement like this as well. Also, would like a rope(10')+grappling hook item that allows me to climb (up) as well. For every 10' of rope "combined" to the grappling hook add one vertical square... but this is off-topic, so, yes, stairs. =)

I need these as well (used both indoor / outdoor). somebody skilled around ?

It doesn't work.

Assuming stairs would be a 1x1 tile (or 2x1 doesn't matter), when you are standing on the stair tile, you are actually halfway between two elevation levels which is not very well defined state. For example, consider what happens when you are fighting with a monster that is half a tile above/below you or what happens when you are shooting projectiles or somebody shoots a projectile at you. The beauty of the grid based system is that it's so well defined.

Another idea is to make the stairs force movement on the player, so that it's impossible to stand on the stairs, but that has its own can of worms. E.g. what if the other end of stairs is blocked? It also feels unnatural to move more than one square with one action.

So, I think that ladders is actually a very elegant solution to the elevation problem

EDIT: also mechanically I think it is interesting that you can drop anywhere but climb up only at certain places.

petri wrote:It doesn't work.

Assuming stairs would be a 1x1 tile (or 2x1 doesn't matter), when you are standing on the stair tile, you are actually halfway between two elevation levels which is not very well defined state. For example, consider what happens when you are fighting with a monster that is half a tile above/below you or what happens when you are shooting projectiles or somebody shoots a projectile at you. The beauty of the grid based system is that it's so well defined.

Another idea is to make the stairs force movement on the player, so that it's impossible to stand on the stairs, but that has its own can of worms. E.g. what if the other end of stairs is blocked? It also feels unnatural to move more than one square with one action.

So, I think that ladders is actually a very elegant solution to the elevation problem

EDIT: also mechanically I think it is interesting that you can drop anywhere but climb up only at certain places.

actually what I need is just 1x1 square stairs, which will "transfer" you from below to the higher (or lower) elevation, so its very similar like going from -3 heigtmap to 0 heigtmap (just I need stairs object there). Do you think this is not possible ? I somehow feel that such a stairs will make much more better atmospheric effect for example in dungeon halls, than ladder. just my idea

With 1x1 stairs, you would either have to stand on the stairs when you step into the square, or the party would need to be moved 2 squares forward in a single action. Both versions have issues.

If you make the heightmaps close enough, you might be able to sneak onto the next height with an invisible teleporter. Have a teleporter at the lower level, and move it on top of an invisible platform directly above. Keep in mind, this would be absurdly finicky and probably mess with monsters too, but if you work with it enough you might be able to make a smooth transition.

petri wrote:It doesn't work.

Assuming stairs would be a 1x1 tile (or 2x1 doesn't matter), when you are standing on the stair tile, you are actually halfway between two elevation levels which is not very well defined state. For example, consider what happens when you are fighting with a monster that is half a tile above/below you or what happens when you are shooting projectiles or somebody shoots a projectile at you. The beauty of the grid based system is that it's so well defined.

Another idea is to make the stairs force movement on the player, so that it's impossible to stand on the stairs, but that has its own can of worms. E.g. what if the other end of stairs is blocked? It also feels unnatural to move more than one square with one action.

So, I think that ladders is actually a very elegant solution to the elevation problem

In the LoG1 mod I assume gambit37 was thinking of, the (fake) stairs are in between two tiles, like ladders in LoG2 are. So there's no ambiguity - if you're on one tile you're at the lower elevation, if you're on the other one you're at the higher elevation, you can't stop between the two.
But yeah, I don't see what's wrong with just using a ladder.

petri wrote:So, I think that ladders is actually a very elegant solution to the elevation problem

I agree that ladders are elegant - when climbing up It just feels really strange that to come down again, I have to fall off the ledge. The first time I climbed one, I turned round and clicked the top of the ladder to climb down again and nothing happened. I'm curious if something like that was tried in development but didn't work in practice?

I suppose as a designer myself, falling off the edge seems like an odd way to solve the problem. The ladders allow the entire party to climb up it at the same time (we can manage to suspend our disbelief about this amazing feat), but it's then much harder to suspend our disbelief when the engine informs us we can't climb back down and have to jump off the edge. From a design point of view, it's peculiar and inconsistent. Of course, I'm being pedantic and annoying - I totally understand that there must have been technical issues with implementing "climb down".

Anyway, I understand the difficulty in making open stairs between elevations, but based on the screenshot from the LoG1 mod, I thought perhaps it was possible. I found the screenshot, it's from the Master Quest mod. Maybe this is just a promo and those stairs never worked, I don't know as I didn't play it:

The stairs in that mod "work" by changing the party's level.